tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post5448314474684954685..comments2023-11-02T19:19:15.129+05:30Comments on Death Ends Fun: Taunt-surfingDilip D'Souzahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08221707482541503243noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-21483102795006775972010-12-18T08:21:17.089+05:302010-12-18T08:21:17.089+05:30"Preference" is not the word I would use..."Preference" is not the word I would use. Given a choice between a regime headed by Thackeray and one headed by Bush, I'd want to shoot myself. So leave that aside.<br /><br />The mosque visit was meant to address the fears of American Muslims, right then living in fear of "reprisal" attacks for 9/11, a few of which had already happened. That addressing, I think it achieved then. I've heard American Muslims say so. It was a stark contrast, for example, to what the US did to Japanese-Americans during WW2. It's the kind of thing that Modi should have done, PR or no PR, in early March 2002.<br /><br />I can't think of more ways to beat this into the ground, so if it's OK with you, let's do the usual agree to disagree thing.Dilip D'Souzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08221707482541503243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-33101411627145527122010-12-18T07:43:13.126+05:302010-12-18T07:43:13.126+05:30Dcubed - I am not in the business of comparing hum...Dcubed - I am not in the business of comparing human suffering, so I won't go in to the who is worse (nor will you, I am sure) but your preference of Bush is absurd. That mosque speech was meaningless- MEANINGLESS. How and why? Ask the people he was addressing and then also consider his administration's actions and policies. <br /><br />Its hard for me to understand how the regime head responsible (legally indictable btw) of systematic torture, illegal abduction, illegal invasion, dismantling of constitutional rights and by standards of Nuremberg indictable of the WORST CRIME on Humanity - Aggression..<br /><br />is preferable just because he made a meaningless speech. And remember I don't call it meaningless because it was a speech. Pres. Obama also made a speech in Cairo. As low an opinion as I have of it and of that speech, it certainly was not meaningless given the positive impact it is supposed to have had over the muslim world. <br /><br />BVAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-57265657459616348982010-12-18T06:41:31.211+05:302010-12-18T06:41:31.211+05:30No, I've read several of their opeds in the or...No, I've read several of their opeds in the original Marathi too. I am yet to find something worthwhile in them. <br /><br />"All will be good" is meaningless. That visit to a mosque sent out a message that needed to be sent out. PR or not, I'm yet to see Thackeray doing anything similar.<br /><br />I try to believe that most people/regimes/leaders have a mix in them, of things I find abhorrent and worthwhile. And if I find those worthwhile things, I try to speak about them too, because the world around us is not black and white. <br /><br />In some people/regimes/leaders, I'm yet to find those worthwhile things.Dilip D'Souzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08221707482541503243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-72625543099876273852010-12-18T00:39:53.048+05:302010-12-18T00:39:53.048+05:30Dcubed - Thanks for the answer.
Language has a l...Dcubed - Thanks for the answer. <br /><br />Language has a lot to do with it. Shiv Sena and their propaganda apparatus has written great benevolent sounding op-eds in the past. You will have never read them. They were in Marathi.<br /><br />"but I was encouraged by the way [Bush] went to a mosque in NYC after 9/11 and made a point to his countrymen. "<br />-bravo. <br /><br />So all you need is for Shiv Sena leaders to hire PR agents, speech writers and all will be good, even if they start a war against "ant-Indianism" where most victims happen to be of one specific communityAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-52636886287197737272010-12-17T12:35:27.163+05:302010-12-17T12:35:27.163+05:30BV: Short answer is no.
First, the language has n...BV: Short answer is no.<br /><br />First, the language has nothing to do with this. After all, the Sena's rhetoric and bluster come to me in English.<br /><br />Second, this is about extremes, where it is difficult to find any redeemable qualities. I hate Bush's venture into Iraq, for example, but I was encouraged by the way he went to a mosque in NYC after 9/11 and made a point to his countrymen. I have mentioned that somewhere (can't immediately locate it) in my writing. In contrast, I cannot think of one Sena utterance I find worthwhile.Dilip D'Souzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08221707482541503243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-34249249606953183232010-12-17T12:09:58.205+05:302010-12-17T12:09:58.205+05:30Tabby dreams of having been crowned the Grammar Qu...Tabby dreams of having been crowned the Grammar Queen.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-87787297444210527022010-12-14T20:31:37.223+05:302010-12-14T20:31:37.223+05:30RS: "The management types have for a while be...RS: "The management types have for a while been talking of the importance of EQ as opposed to IQ. Perhaps TF has low IQ but outstanding EQ"<br /><br />You have that right. The "EQ system" takes ones with high IQ, offers them much money, profits from them, raises their EQ/IQ ratio and turns them into scoundrels who write drivel that belongs to the intellectual waste basket, but is remarkably profitable. Perhaps you personally do not deal in any profitable goods/services, thus have maintained your original miniscule and pontificating EQ/IQ ratio.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-28894634753661554612010-12-14T04:05:22.322+05:302010-12-14T04:05:22.322+05:30Dcubed - What if the Shiv Sena would speak in Engl...Dcubed - What if the Shiv Sena would speak in English and were capable of intellectual hypocrisy and eloquence. If they manage to create a class of educated propagandists and intellectual apologists, will you perhaps find the Shiv Sena less condemnable?<br /><br />Essentially what I am asking you why you find yourself less lenient to the crimes and politics of the Shiv Sena than say the crimes of the American presidency (since Truman, pick any one)<br /><br />Would you quote some good quotes from Bal Thackeray then? Would Bal Thackeray give you some fodder for thought then? like Barrack Obama did recently?<br /><br />BVAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-5013439856328076882010-12-13T09:58:58.138+05:302010-12-13T09:58:58.138+05:30Thanks PM for the explanation. You didnt owe me on...Thanks PM for the explanation. You didnt owe me one of course, and could have batted me down like Rahul did upstairs. But thanks for taking me seriously enough to not do so.<br /><br />I didnt have anything to say on the OP here, but let me note that some of the discussion (esp. on TF) couldnt happen at a more appropriate place! esp w.r.t the title. This includes my own characterization of somebody as "bananas".<br /><br />On TF:<br />I used to like his writing several yrs ago and then outgrew it. His mission statment appears to be to get the gist of something within 10 words or less. That "something" is typically vast, complex and could easily take books and years of effort to get a handle on. He gets things pretty wrong or only superficially right. <br /><br />For all that I wouldnt call him stuff he's getting called here.<br /><br />thanks,<br />JaiAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-71376705680052755252010-12-13T06:31:28.955+05:302010-12-13T06:31:28.955+05:30Jai (Dec 10, 11:10 AM):
It seems easy enough for ...Jai (Dec 10, 11:10 AM):<br /><br />It seems easy enough for you (and me, but that's because I know him) to pick out my co-blogger,the Anon-who-was-formerly-a-pseudonym, based purely on his (lack of) writing style, so I don't see what the big deal with the transition to anon is. I would worry when he discovers how to use commas correctly, because that will make it really difficult to recognize him (not really, but I couldn't resist the cheap shot). <br /><br />I think now that the "serious" commenters can easily recognize him, there is no need to sign off with his pseudonym. When both of us did sign in to blogger or comment with a link to our blog, we started getting hate comments there. Our blog is fairly silly with a high irony content, and it makes little sense to have people judge our comments here based on the nonsense we post on it. <br /><br />BV / Rahul :<br /><br />Yes, it is a weird coincidence that we were all reading Taibbi around the same time. Actually, before I read your comment (BV's comment), I thought you got the Taibbi links from Rahul. In any case, those were thoroughly enjoyable reads, so thank you both for them.<br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />PM<br /><br />PS: word verification : hingh<br />PPS: Firefox doesn't like "commenters"PMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-80849945936082148282010-12-12T14:56:03.071+05:302010-12-12T14:56:03.071+05:30Doesn't it bother you that most of the haters ...Doesn't it bother you that most of the haters don't know grammar of any language?Rohanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15788970854775804701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-68582919639443622482010-12-12T07:00:17.803+05:302010-12-12T07:00:17.803+05:30LOL
"DCubed has a way with his words and is ...LOL<br /><br />"DCubed has a way with his words and is very good at it. I wish he just stuck to travelogues and not pontificate with his prejudices. "<br /><br />means, Dcubed seems to invoke basic humanity and reason in me and I don't like it because it challenges my unsustainable bigotry that has now become conventional wisdom. Hence Dcubed should stop making me uncomfortable and write things that don't make any one uncomfortable like Chetan Bhagat or better, Gurcharan Das or even better Harsha Bhogale "arre su ingles boleche, first class"<br /><br /><br />Congrats Dcubed. The fact that these people are so revolted by your "expositions" but keep coming back means you are doing something terribly right.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-71526671469228006612010-12-12T06:19:41.495+05:302010-12-12T06:19:41.495+05:30By the way I should add that whenever I see words ...By the way I should add that whenever I see words to the effect of "I wish he just stuck to [whatever]", I know I'm doing something right.Dilip D'Souzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08221707482541503243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-81945702441284830242010-12-12T06:08:29.191+05:302010-12-12T06:08:29.191+05:30Mentioning that two incidents left me nauseated am...Mentioning that two incidents left me nauseated amounts to "equating" them: this is the logic, such as it is, on display here.Dilip D'Souzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08221707482541503243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-18111367676423550892010-12-12T02:02:00.335+05:302010-12-12T02:02:00.335+05:30DCubed has a way with his words and is very good a...DCubed has a way with his words and is very good at it. I wish he just stuck to travelogues and not pontificate with his prejudices. <br />Equating a blast at a religious place to a gruesome end to a silly spat in a train shows a menial bend in his thinking and argument.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-12403213422846498322010-12-11T21:30:08.325+05:302010-12-11T21:30:08.325+05:30Dilip - if you're saying TF knows how to get a...Dilip - if you're saying TF knows how to get ahead in the world, yes, you're right. If you're saying he writes as he does not because he's an idiot but because he is catering to idiots, well, maybe you're right too. Is it preferable to be a fool or to be a scoundrel? My explanation was the more charitable, because he seems genuinely to believe what he is saying, with wide-eyed naivete -- but perhaps that is part of the game. But I doubt it's a pretence.<br /><br />The management types have for a while been talking of the importance of EQ as opposed to IQ. Perhaps TF has low IQ but outstanding EQ.Rahul Siddharthanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04809667965184094636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-88919732711022587102010-12-11T20:40:38.222+05:302010-12-11T20:40:38.222+05:30Interesting the turn this discussion has taken ......Interesting the turn this discussion has taken ...<br /><br />Rahul, what you say about TF reminds me of someone you and I have had discussions about, in particular in regard to a certain cricket enterprise. I find that person's writing empty, shallow, you name it. Much like you find TF's (and like I do, admittedly). But that person is no moron. That person knows exactly how to get ahead in this world, and had got pretty far (if not as far as TF). <br /><br />I see TF similarly.<br /><br />We need more Taibbis, certainly. I wish I had the kind of rapier way with words he does. Maybe I should try.Dilip D'Souzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08221707482541503243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-87582558258180012972010-12-11T20:12:29.101+05:302010-12-11T20:12:29.101+05:30Dilip -- yes, a moron is a stupid person. It is p...Dilip -- yes, a moron is a stupid person. It is possible that you deny the possibility of a stupid person. Nobody is stupid, you may say. I can respect that. But if you admit the existence of even a single stupid person in this world, surely T. Friedman is it.<br /><br />I wouldn't call him stupid if he wrote from a small town for the Hitavada or a local college paper. But he writes what he does from an incredibly privileged position: he has met and talked to rich and famous people all over the world, he has access to any information he wants, anyone would return his calls. And yet he produces <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/18/opinion/our-war-with-france.html" rel="nofollow">"Our war with France"</a> (which I was sufficiently irritated with to <a href="http://rsidd.online.fr/friedman.html" rel="nofollow">parody</a>, back in 2003 before the world discovered blogs). <br /><br />And remember the whole Rumsfeld-inspired tripe about "old Europe" (Germany) and "new Europe" (Ireland)? <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/01/opinion/01friedman.html" rel="nofollow">Here's</a> what Friedman wrote in 2005: "The only question is when Germany and France will face reality: either they become Ireland or they become museums."<br /><br />These are not isolated examples, only the most extreme ones. Taibbi does a real public service in calling Friedman out on his idiocy, because, sad to say, there are still people who take him seriously. Taibbi may write like a college kid on drugs, but there is more substance in a single page of his reports on the financial crisis, the mortgage crisis, etc, than in all of Friedman's oeuvre this century. And there are Friedmans in India too. We need more Taibbis. <br /><br />It is possible Friedman was not always a moron -- I discovered him only around 2003 and have no idea what his pre-NYT history was, but presumably he did <i>something</i> to earn his seat as their resident pundit. <br /><br />As for Dinesh D'Souza -- he's no moron. He's a demagogue in the mould of Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck, with a veneer of sophistication, and (like them) he knows exactly what he's doing.Rahul Siddharthanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04809667965184094636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-7666334977178815142010-12-11T16:58:17.153+05:302010-12-11T16:58:17.153+05:30No, it's only that I'd like to be precise ...No, it's only that I'd like to be precise in words I use. <br /><br />There is a value to condemning a lot of people/things. There is very little the Shiv Sena and its leaders do that I find worth anything but condemnation. Their kind of hate-filled politics is sickening to me and I want no part of it. Ever. There are other examples.<br /><br />But "Invictus" did open my eyes: the way Mandela dealt with his political opponents and put his country on a path entirely different, and better, than it might have taken after he was released and apartheid came to an end. I'm not sure I have the fibre to do it his way -- check the way I feel about the SS -- but it is an inspiring, thought-provoking, stimulating example.<br /><br />I do honestly try my best to take substantive criticism seriously. Try me. But remember that taking it seriously may not necessarily mean that I agree with it, or don't have my own point of view that I will also put forward.<br /><br />As for Ann Coulter, she does have long hair (last I checked) and I like long hair. Apart from that I find little to recommend her.Dilip D'Souzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08221707482541503243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-47200741573046190102010-12-11T15:16:23.744+05:302010-12-11T15:16:23.744+05:30True story:
Friend 1: Have you heard of Dilip D&#...True story:<br /><br />Friend 1: Have you heard of Dilip D'Souza?<br />Friend 2: That Christian dude who argues with atheists. LOL! yes... <br />Friend 1: What!? No! this guy is an Indian journalist, excellent writer. The guy on whose true life story, the Hindi documentary "Pardes" is based.<br />Friend 2: I think that is Dinesh D'Souza. Are they brothers? <br />Friend 1: What!? No! oh wait let me check...(googles) I don't think so...I would be surprised if they are.<br />Friend 2: So what of Dilip D'Souza?<br />Friend 1: Dilip D'Souza went out with Ann Coulter.<br />Friend 2: What!? Scary Republican, lying, I am scared of Muslims-they-are-"Swarthy suspicious looking men"-Ann Coulter!?<br />Friend 1: YES!<br />Friend 2: What a moron!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-52471695898477376362010-12-11T14:48:06.131+05:302010-12-11T14:48:06.131+05:30and sorry for the misunderstanding
"If someb...and sorry for the misunderstanding<br /><br />"If somebody passionately denounces someone its not necessarily because they are intolerant about disagreement." - Anonymous <br /><br />You never said that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-87779805456676131582010-12-11T14:46:21.990+05:302010-12-11T14:46:21.990+05:30Dcubed -
Yes, by that definition you are right. ...Dcubed - <br /><br />Yes, by that definition you are right. But perhaps in that case we should just give up the usage of both terms moron as well as stupid. Its quite hurtful. But that's a different discussion and an annoyingly semantic one. We are all sensitive people here, we can let such things go...<br /><br />The Mandela discussion<br />http://dcubed.blogspot.com/2010/11/shied-away.html<br />__________________<br />Dcubed:<br /><br />"I don't get much satisfaction in simply condemning people I disagree with. <br /><br />I recommend "Playing the Enemy", the book that inspired the movie "Invictus", and Mandela's thinking."<br />__________________<br /><br />It ends on that similar note as here, where you seem to conclude that the only reason the condemner is condemning the condemnee (aah!) must be that he/she can not handle disagreement.<br /><br />I, if I may, would accuse you of using this as an excuse to not take substantive criticism seriously. May be I am wrong. <br /><br />And I am saying - although dispassionate argumentation and respectful 'agreeing to disagree' should be the norm, sometimes condemnation is justified and perhaps also a good tactic.<br /><br />That said, given that its from Mandela, may be it has some strategic insights on how to argue and struggle against the worst form of condemnable human thought and action which he admirably and famously did succeed at. So will consider that book too...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-40379191533115566412010-12-11T14:28:30.213+05:302010-12-11T14:28:30.213+05:30Sorry to beat this into the ground. My last bit on...Sorry to beat this into the ground. My last bit on this: my dictionary defines "moron" as "a stupid person". I don't believe Friedman is stupid. <br /><br />I don't know what you mean by the "Mandela recommendation" (where did I recommend him, and for what?), or that quote, which I don't have any recollection of having said.Dilip D'Souzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08221707482541503243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-74156247837233814412010-12-11T14:20:44.003+05:302010-12-11T14:20:44.003+05:30"Guys I disagree with are not necessarily stu..."Guys I disagree with are not necessarily stupid." <br /><br />Not necessarily yes, but some really are. <br /><br />So for ex - One might disagree with <br /><br />Christopher Hitchens about invasion of Iraq<br />President Obama about war in Afghanistan/Don't ask don't tell/Economic Policy/<br />Hillary Clinton about wikileaks<br />NYTimes Editors in General<br />L K Advani about almost everything under the sun<br />Dinesh D'Souza and the American Christian Right about Christianity, creationism and neo-conservatism<br />Mao Zedong about revolutionary tactics and totalitarianism <br />Lenin about Totalitatarian socialism <br />Mahatma Gandhi about underwear and its relationship with politics/condescending attitude towards dalits <br /><br />None of these people are stupid. Nor by any definition of a moron, are they morons.<br /><br />Others like <br />Tom Friedman<br /><br />are. The question is why? - Rahul has linked to the Matt Taibbi article, it proves it.<br /><br /><br />Guys I disagree with are not necessarily stupid but some of them just are. As long as you have a convincing answer to why, its all fair.<br /><br /><br />Also - <br /><br />"If somebody passionately denounces someone its not necessarily because they are intolerant about disagreement." <br /><br />That's what I got from your Mandela recommendation.<br /><br />If one misses the entire argument for a particular denunciation every time, (even when links are provided which practically prove the point) does not show any interest in tackling the points and consoles one's self with "Oh, these guys are intolerant about disagreement" then .....alas, but hurrah!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-5881844778462986142010-12-11T13:03:39.144+05:302010-12-11T13:03:39.144+05:30On Friedman: like I said, I find a lot of his anal...On Friedman: like I said, I find a lot of his analysis annoying. But he's no moron -- if we mean the sense of being stupid -- even though a lot of folks might like to call him that. It's like Dinesh D'Souza, whose work I find annoying too, but he's no moron either. Guys I disagree with are not necessarily stupid.<br /><br />I don't post publicly correspondence that is private.Dilip D'Souzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08221707482541503243noreply@blogger.com