tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post6832933399291024765..comments2023-11-02T19:19:15.129+05:30Comments on Death Ends Fun: Perceptions, hurt and angerDilip D'Souzahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08221707482541503243noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-65951690819452722452010-08-11T19:03:03.401+05:302010-08-11T19:03:03.401+05:30From another forum, an incisive message:
"Hi...From another forum, an incisive message:<br /><br />"Hinduism and Secularism are more like a Garland with different flowers all sewn together with a dharmic/constitutional law thread. Outwardly there is unit level distinction and lack of uniformity, but inwardly all have same soul and flow.<br /><br />The distorted Islam which is nothing but Caliph Arab imperialism is like Charcoal where everything is burnt down and therefore there is an outward uniformity, but no inward soul or thread to bind all. TSP-BD, Iran-Iraq etc. are examples of that.<br /><br />TSP is basically a burnt Garland, and since the common binding thread is all gone there is nothing to keep it together.<br />The efforts of TSPA to link all burnt charcoal into a presentable Garland using an anti-India rope, in a vain bid to copy India is hilarious at best and preposterous at worst."Chandru Knoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-76940108977760767192010-08-02T21:31:27.192+05:302010-08-02T21:31:27.192+05:30- vajpai was "suddenly removed" as pm wh...- vajpai was "suddenly removed" as pm when his govt unexpectedly lost 2004 lok sabha elections. remember? same with lalu when he lost in bihar.<br /><br /><br />Nice Try. Losing an election is not a sudden removal. :)<br />Sudden removal was suggested after the re-election. Unless you count on Governators who dismiss State Governments.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-85696995743817599372010-07-28T10:23:26.657+05:302010-07-28T10:23:26.657+05:30"So what part of it is not the same as a call..."So what part of it is not the same as a call to kill?"<br /><br />yeh, for blindfolded modi fans you have to spell it out.<br /><br />the difference is simple, it is not a call to kill, which the other one eplicitly is a call to kill.<br /><br />vajpai was "suddenly removed" as pm when his govt unexpectedly lost 2004 lok sabha elections. remember? same with lalu when he lost in bihar. <br /><br />loss in polls removes people from office, as might happen to modi. it dosnt mean they are killed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-55944985576173792852010-07-27T18:12:32.670+05:302010-07-27T18:12:32.670+05:30The odd Pakistani opponent/exposer of the military...The odd Pakistani opponent/exposer of the military or nuclear shenanigans of the Pakistani elite, do not constitute a vibrant civic/social culture, certainly nothing remotely comparable to India. Pakistan as a country is about the military, landlords, terrorists and a few Anglicised elite, constantly reacting to India, or trying to bring India down. <br /> India's major problem with Pakistan is the latter's absence of a strong civic-secular culture that expresses itself openly. If/When Pakistan develops that, it will cease to be Pakistan.Chandru Knoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-16374564824375005002010-07-27T09:49:41.349+05:302010-07-27T09:49:41.349+05:30"in Pakistan, you never hear of any equivalen..."in Pakistan, you never hear of any equivalents of Tathagat Avatar Tulsi, Vishwanathan Anand" ...<br /><br />im sure the great chandru k has nvr heard of pervez hoodbhoy, the award-winning nuclear physicist and, interestingly, peace activist. (to give one example)<br /><br />no, its preferable to hold tight to the idea of indian superiority to the rest of the world, even tho chandru himself blvs in it so much that he hangs out in canada.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-51146286531357828262010-07-27T03:07:16.660+05:302010-07-27T03:07:16.660+05:30"One of those folks you name above called, in..."One of those folks you name above called, in writing, for a public figure to be killed. "<br /><br />And a certain Cool Seer of a TV journalist/anchor called for the "sudden removal" of a democratically elected (not rigged ballot) leader.<br />No, not a pip-squeak then ?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-43082403737656815092010-07-26T22:31:43.432+05:302010-07-26T22:31:43.432+05:30It is interesting that in Pakistan, you never hear...It is interesting that in Pakistan, you never hear of any equivalents of Tathagat Avatar Tulsi, Vishwanathan Anand, students selected for NASA visits, students helping to build satellites or satellite payloads, brilliant IIT ians, scientists questioning the existence of Black Holes, winners of medals in physics or math Olympiads, Satyajit Ray's, Mrinal Sen's, Shakuntala Devi's, Kishore Parekh's, JJ Rawal's etc. <br /> India has a much more vibrant and creative civic/civilian culture. D'Souza never brings this out in any of his articles.Chandru Knoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-22673241290396043932010-07-23T12:03:46.969+05:302010-07-23T12:03:46.969+05:30My mention of phony claims of "objectivity&qu...My mention of phony claims of "objectivity": there are plenty of folks out there who claim balance and objectivity, but who are clearly not anything like that. FOX news actually claims to be "fair and balanced", I think that's their slug. Whatever I see them doing is about as far from being fair and balanced as it's possible to be. To me, that's not objectivity, that's hypocrisy. <br /><br />I don't think that's at all antithetical to anything I've written. The reports in both countries about the India-Pak talks went along partisan lines. That's why I pointed to the WSJ report, that did not lean either way.Dilip D'Souzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08221707482541503243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-18657511181375672852010-07-23T11:56:20.055+05:302010-07-23T11:56:20.055+05:30Ketan:
But evidence to pin such involvement is lo...Ketan:<br /><br /><i>But evidence to pin such involvement is lot more questionable as compared to the kind of visual evidence against HS & Kasab</i>.<br /><br />But what kind of statement is this? The great majority of criminal cases judiciaries decide, the world over, do not rely on "visual evidence" like you want, because there is most often no TV coverage of those crimes. Yet they still convict and punish the criminals. Examples? Tim McVeigh, Bill&Ranga, 1993 Bombay bomb blasts, proceedings against Milosevic, etc. Sure the evidence might be questionable, but that's just why you have a judiciary, to look at the evidence and decide guilt in cases brought before them.<br /><br />There's not even a serious start in bringing cases for the massacres of 1984, 1992-93, 2002. Nothing. Yet you already say the evidence is "a lot more questionable". <br /><br />I'm hardly saying "hurt and anger" is the "driving force for justice". I'm only pointing to the TOI report that says there is hurt and anger in India because the 26/11 masterminds are roaming free in Pakistan, and asking: is there hurt and anger in India because the 2002 (say) criminals are roaming free in India? Why or why not?Dilip D'Souzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08221707482541503243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-79514084324735159342010-07-23T01:27:32.884+05:302010-07-23T01:27:32.884+05:30And BTW, Dilip it might not be possible for me to ...And BTW, <b>Dilip</b> it might not be possible for me to always sift through all your blog posts and my comments, so I wanted to assure, I would try my best to be honest in claiming you had said certain things. I also understand, when you ask me what made me infer certain thing, that would be out of curiosity and concern (of not being misunderstood).Ketanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02622410643454108685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-50702872744694343712010-07-23T01:22:31.764+05:302010-07-23T01:22:31.764+05:30As to the other question you had asked, I was reca...As to the other question you had asked, I was recalling this portion of <a href="http://dcubed.blogspot.com/2010/05/100s-of-1000s.html?showComment=1274767524103#c5799189392124320157" rel="nofollow">your comment (click)</a>:<br /><br /><i>"I believe everyone is biased, and I see nothing wrong with that. Give me that rather than some phony claim of "objectivity", every time."</i><br /><br />Does that not sound antithetical to the following?<br /><br /><i>"Possibly lost in all that is a non-partisan account of what happened, that will give us a better understanding of it all."</i><br /><br />Though, in the very same blog post, you had also said this:<br /><br /><i>"This is not meant to suggest that he tell lies: a liar will immediately be found out. So getting your facts right is paramount, that's a given."</i><br /><br />And that's why in my above comment I also said:<br /><br />"I'm not sure if he was confused between news-reporting and expressing opinion, but my comment had been in context of former only."<br /><br />I wanted to point out, dishonesty does not consist merely of lying, but when one knows that the reader is going to rely solely on second-hand information to form opinions, concealing some vital facts is also dishonest (and is an outcome of biases and lack of objectivity - something that you had been dismissive of).<br /><br />Also, in the same post's comments' section I had said this:<br /><br />"As another example, I find most of the news presented nowadays highly irritating, not because it pains or shames me, but because it's biased, sensationalist & highly opinionated."<br /><br />What made me smile was that the following three news headlines would perfectly exemplify what I was trying to tell!<br /><br />1. "Qureshi Kills Peace Talks"<br /><br />2. "Failure of talks exposes Pak’s evil designs"<br /><br />3. "Pakistan's 'all or nothing' timeline trap broke talks"<br /><br />And I'm afraid, not just the headlines, even the actual account thereunder many times continue in the same tone. I'd tried to explain why that happens in the same post:<br /><br />"Unlike what Baby V feels, I attribute media's flawed approach to commercial interests. Most news are presented from a pure 'good v/s evil' perspective to make the reader/viewer stake an emotional claim in the story. Most would want to side with the 'good' & hate the 'evil'. But this effect is usually achieved through exaggeration & concealment of facts. We in our urgency to side with the 'good' miss glaring logical inconsistencies. So, having seen how people react to news, I disagree with: <i>"a liar will immediately be found out."</i>"<br /><br />Hope, this clarifies why I said in the second comment on this blog.Ketanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02622410643454108685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-29320819769277745062010-07-23T01:17:35.532+05:302010-07-23T01:17:35.532+05:30...All along, I've only been trying to tell yo......All along, I've only been trying to tell you that the reason Indians react so strongly in case of Kasab and HS is not merely their being Pakistani/Muslim (which though is part of the reason), but if the latter goes unpunished, it is a direct affront to the intelligence of the viewer of video clips when Pakistani officials say "there is not sufficient evidence to take action against HS".<br /><br />You had implied that (equally) convincing evidence against Indians involved in killings is also there, but I'm afraid, either such evidence has not been publicized sufficiently or, in most cases they're verbal testimonies or circumstantial evidence, which cannot evoke as strong an emotional response as those video clips. It's much more visceral to demand justice when you directly see the evidence of crime as against someone telling you, "so and so had committed such and such crimes". <b>Do you agree with this part?</b><br /><br />But you had in the past dismissed my pointing out these differences as my excuses for not wanting Indians punished for their crimes. That inference is for you to draw; I can't put forth my arguments more clearly.<br /><br />Anyway, the most important reason there is a difference in passion with which justice is demanded for two sets of crimes lies in the lines along which <b>groupism</b> operates (which of course you know, but for some reasons do not state explicitly). An Indian killing a Pakistani is a hero for most Indians, but a villain for most Pakistani. A Pakistani killing an Indian is a villain for most Indians and a hero for Pakistanis. A Hindu killing (innocent) Muslim is a hero for certain fraction of Hindus and a villain for most Muslims. A Muslim killing an innocent Hindu is a hero for certain fraction of Muslims and a villain for most Muslims. Hence, the consequent polarization, which either results in 'buffering' of outrage or its intensification. But for outrage to get channelized in 'appropriate' amounts (dictated by nature of crime and evidence available) towards 'appropriate' persons would require people to shed their partisan attitude and lose their biases and be objective!<br /><br /><i>Why those responsible for killing riot victims have not been punished?</i><br /><br />There is not a single answer, and my long reply I have linked above, largely deals with that.<br /><br />Anyway, I leave it at that.Ketanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02622410643454108685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-10430411100651250612010-07-23T01:16:19.072+05:302010-07-23T01:16:19.072+05:30Dilip,
In summary, I'd cited four reasons why...<b>Dilip,</b><br /><br />In summary, I'd cited four reasons why any crime is (and not, "should be") punished (am not getting into whether such reasons are honorable or not):<br /><br /><b>1.</b> As discouragement for future crimes (committed by same person or to-be committed by some other person) by stimulating the 'punishment center' of their brain - the deterrence aspect.<br /><br /><b>2.</b> Guided by a sense of revenge (what you term as closure).<br /><br /><b>3.</b> The criminal, while knowing that he's violating certain terms of ethics and law by committing a crime is <b>consenting</b> to be punished, and punishing such person becomes obligatory for those given the responsibility to punish them by the society (police/judiciary, etc.).<br /><br /><b>4.</b> To prevent those 'habitual'& 'professional' criminals who make committing crimes a way of their life and would be actively plotting to repeat such crimes, unless physically stopped (by putting them in jail).<br /><br />What's common between punishment for terrorist attacks and 'religious' riots are the first three points. It's the fourth point that differentiates the two cases.<br /><br />If someone picks out a random person and tells me, "He's from Pakistan and had planted a bomb in a cinema hall that had killed 'x' number of people", I would be somewhat skeptical of that claim. If he does not get punished, my skepticism would greatly limit my anger against him.<br /><br />But when I <b>actually</b> see (on TV) someone like Hafeez Sayed, amidst people carrying illegal arms meant to kill human beings only on the basis of religion they were born into, little is left to imagination! My outrage against his not getting punished would be much greater.<br /><br />If criminals who had killed/provided resources for killing of people in riots are not punished, that is a travesty of justice (and shows inefficiency of justice-delivery system in India, and as you correctly point out, insincerity of judiciary/police/politicians and to a very limited extent, of citizens [I put very little blame on citizens, because representative form of democracy does not ensure people's will dictating state action]). But evidence to pin such involvement is lot more questionable as compared to the kind of visual evidence against HS & Kasab (e.g, as proved by Mumbai police not being able to 'secure' sentences against two Indians who were tried along with Kasab despite 'meticulous' investigation and anger of Indians against them).<br /><br /><i>"is there "hurt and anger" in India that the masterminds of Delhi 1984, Gujarat 2002, Bombay 1992-93 and more are roaming free in India?"</i><br /><br />I'm afraid, there's another point of distinction I wanted to present. Driving force for justice, if allowed to be "hurt & anger" can be very dangerous. For, maybe not hurt, but definitely anger can be manufactured based on what are presented as facts, and what facts are concealed.<br /><br />Despite what I state above, I believe (and have anyway stated that on your blog before and in a very long personal reply I had drafted for your reading <a href="http://ketanresponds.blogspot.com/search/label/Dilip" rel="nofollow">here [click]</a>, which I request you again to read) that those involved in actual killing of humans or provision of resources to do so, must be punished. I have never stated anything to the contrary!...Ketanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02622410643454108685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-66541548658638182062010-07-22T23:34:34.773+05:302010-07-22T23:34:34.773+05:30I think our perceptions on polite writng differ.
...<i>I think our perceptions on polite writng differ</i>.<br /><br />Given what you produce on these pages, I couldn't agree more.<br /><br />Same question that you were too shallow to answer a couple of days ago: where have I been mocking of these people? Impolite? Please supply quotes. You haven't yet with the last time you made such a claim, about my accusing you of approving of killings. Can you do it now?Dilip D'Souzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08221707482541503243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-60702163812583344262010-07-22T23:20:36.301+05:302010-07-22T23:20:36.301+05:30"Why should Indians have to spend so much of ..."Why should Indians have to spend so much of their time worrying about whether past injustices, and the failure to resolve those injustices, will create conditions where India is subject to more terrorism?"<br /><br />is this a serious question? <br /><br />because we are sick of terrorism and want to stop it. would have thot that was obvious, but there are cks and cks who dont see the obvious.<br /><br />and you are seriously suggesting we emulate china, saudi and iran?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-43210360271945431072010-07-22T22:17:22.567+05:302010-07-22T22:17:22.567+05:30"Yes. I think justice for BM demolition, some..."Yes. I think justice for BM demolition, some blasts cases after that, 2002 Guj riots will go some significant way in reducing the recruits for terror groups and other help they may be getting from some elements.<br /><br />I dont think the LeT in Pakistan will go "ok we're done pack up" :-)"<br /><br /> This, the above posting by Jai, is representative of the fundamental flaw in Indian thinking. Why should Indians have to spend so much of their time worrying about whether past injustices, and the failure to resolve those injustices, will create conditions where India is subject to more terrorism? <br /> <br /> Does any other country think all along those lines, or possess those concerns? Does China, with its no doubt numerous embittered Tibetans, Falun Gong and Tiananmen Square dissidents, apart from other dissidents? Does Iran, which has slaughtered and expelled its B'ahai and Jewish groups, and which kills its gay and lesbian population at will? What about Saudi, which *outlaws* the free expression of any other religion besides Islam. Or the free expression of atheism, agnosticism, heresy and apostasy? <br /><br /> It seems to be a concern unique to India.Chandru Knoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-55331986044163328962010-07-22T21:25:37.986+05:302010-07-22T21:25:37.986+05:30If all the comments and descriptions you have writ...If all the comments and descriptions you have written on the above people is called a disagreement (polite disagreement like professional journalists without using any mocking language, then I think our perceptions on polite writng differ. <br />Ok - Would you ever care to have a polite dialogue with any of the people i have mentioned. As far as I know, ther ewas one at Sandeepwe and some with Varsha <br />But please eager to read a dialogue in public e mail exchanges with Swapan, Kanchan, Francois etc. Not that I feel anything positive will happen, but since you have been so courteous wiht Binaji, perhaps some charity at home would sufficeNikhilnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-53143746468446562122010-07-22T14:32:19.955+05:302010-07-22T14:32:19.955+05:30When I had pointed out the need for the same when ...<i>When I had pointed out the need for the same when reporting domestic events, Dilip had rejected the possibility of staying objective</i>.<br /><br />Please tell me exactly what I said and where that makes you conclude this. thanks.Dilip D'Souzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08221707482541503243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-1207303195463581362010-07-22T14:30:31.396+05:302010-07-22T14:30:31.396+05:30I find logically flawed comparing one-time violent...<i>I find logically flawed comparing one-time violent flare ups of '84, '02, etc., with periodic installments of planned attacks like that of 26/11</i>.<br /><br />Let's try this again, Ketan. What did I ask? this: is there "hurt and anger" in India that the masterminds of Delhi 1984, Gujarat 2002, Bombay 1992-93 and more are roaming free in India? (I know plenty of people who are hurt and angry over that). Can there be closure on any of those episodes without justice?<br /><br />Can you simply answer this, for yourself? No comparisons to anything, just give me an answer.<br /><br />I presume your answers will be "yes" and "no" respectively. If not, please explain.<br /><br />Since that's the case, I ask: why won't we deliver this justice? It's not that we don't want justice -- after all, we are demanding it in the case of 26/11. So what prevents us from delivering it for those other episodes? <br /><br />And if we won't or can't deliver it in those episodes, why are we so sure we want it for 26/11?<br /><br />I make no comparisons to anything, I leave that to others. <br /><br />I'm simply asking: why doesn't our desire for punishment and justice extend to 1984, 2002, etc?Dilip D'Souzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08221707482541503243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-84580274431382647482010-07-22T09:25:27.082+05:302010-07-22T09:25:27.082+05:30Sorry, comment got truncated.
One of those folks...Sorry, comment got truncated. <br /><br />One of those folks you name above called, in writing, for a public figure to be killed. <br /><br />I'm supposed to agree with this, or keep quiet about it?Dilip D'Souzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08221707482541503243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-19650370530712926212010-07-22T09:23:29.514+05:302010-07-22T09:23:29.514+05:30He has always been attacking people who do not agr...<i>He has always been attacking people who do not agree with his point of view List includes Swapan Dasgupts, Varsha Bhosle, Rajeev Srinivasan, Francois Gautier, Sandeepweb, Rohit</i>.<br /><br />Not that I expect an answer, but anyway: please let me know where I have "been attacking" these folks. Disagreeing with them, vehemently so, yes. I make no apologies for that. You call that "attacking"?Dilip D'Souzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08221707482541503243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-18855764120271551022010-07-22T02:38:34.605+05:302010-07-22T02:38:34.605+05:30Converting Dilip or necessarily getting him to agr...Converting Dilip or necessarily getting him to agree to your PoV should not IMO be an objective.<br /><br />Jai - agree with you on this. Maybe Dilip needs to heed this advice. At least he needs to stop mocking people who do not agree with his point of view. <br />What is his track record on this count. He has always been attacking people who do not agree with his point of view List includes Swapan Dasgupts, Varsha Bhosle, Rajeev Srinivasan, Francois Gautier, Sandeepweb, Rohit etc. Not to forget the different people who have disagreed on this blog and other forumsNikhilnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-75015949724114641292010-07-21T19:38:54.241+05:302010-07-21T19:38:54.241+05:30"The sharper individuals in this forum can de..."The sharper individuals in this forum can detect the difference in style and tone."<br /><br />It appears that this forum is filled with dullards. Dullards, Dullards, Dullards (DDD). That is why your different personalities are so confusing to others - except for you and me. We know!Chandru Knoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-87122363930791145572010-07-21T11:17:25.417+05:302010-07-21T11:17:25.417+05:30Ketan,
OT was Off-topic and agree its unclear(ont...Ketan,<br /><br />OT was Off-topic and agree its unclear(ontopic can compress to the same thing, I just saw it used on many other blogs). Much of this comment will be off-topic unfortunately.<br /><br />MIA was "missing in action". If you provide the counter-anchor to Dilip's views, wherever you feel it relevant of course, CK would be getting a lot less attention. Even the most reasonable-sounding of CK's avatars dont come close.<br /><br />For one example: Your counterpoint to some ad campaign post where you said the use of a Pakistani general's pic did not imply that Indian Army had no male officers, was pretty good.<br /><br />We can disagree on Modi and even on the strength of that very analogy that does not prevent me from appreciating that kind of counter.<br /><br />What such comments do is open up the think-space on that topic. <br /><br />Please continue to post here at least every couple of months or so?<br /><br />Converting Dilip or necessarily getting him to agree to your PoV should not IMO be an objective.<br /><br />You can leave comments on any top-level post on my blog (jaics) regardless of relevance to the post if you feel it will be of interest to me. But I dont comment on blogs usually until I have read them for years.<br /><br />Sorry Dilip for this offthread disc.<br /><br />thx,<br />JaiJai_Cnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-76546249149642575642010-07-20T19:25:24.067+05:302010-07-20T19:25:24.067+05:30"if this guy here is the same as the guy who ..."if this guy here is the same as the guy who was running the last 10 or so comments on the "In Kashmir" thread "<br /><br /> That was definitely myself making the comparison between Kashmir on the one hand, and North Korea, Saudi and Myanmar on the other. To stress that Kashmir enjoys far more freedom, openness and democracy than those countries. I also made a remark about how Moslems tend to feel victimised and hence justify or excuse violence against non-Moslems. I did *not* make the sarcastic remark about Moslems being a pampered and 'cossetted' lot, or how they are harassing Hindus in Gujarat. The sharper individuals in this forum can detect the difference in style and tone.Chandru Knoreply@blogger.com