tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post7088647741523511335..comments2023-11-02T19:19:15.129+05:30Comments on Death Ends Fun: Such killingDilip D'Souzahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08221707482541503243noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-8845142240724368912007-06-05T23:48:00.000+05:302007-06-05T23:48:00.000+05:30What I do understand is that you should not commen...What I do understand is that you should not comment on things that you haven't experienced firsthand.<BR/>Its very easy to sit in a News Room or your home and say that encounters "killings" cannot be justified because they are not legal.<BR/>There would've been no U.S.A....or even India....if the freedomfighters HAD followed the law of the land (And it is the same thing.....cos law applies to everyone).<BR/>Secondly....get out of your homes n take a look around....just the fact that you can do that....is because of these Encounter "killings".<BR/>Dont u ppl remember the state of affairs in Bombay when these gangsters ruled over the city...with organized crime flourishing...there were indiscriminate killings by them everywhere.<BR/>And there was a 74% reduction in crime...just because of these encounter "Killings"<BR/>There was a time in Delhi...when People were afraid to get out of their homes....they might've been kidnapped.....and all this changed...with the encounter "killings".<BR/>Well U could argue that the judicial system is supposed to sanction killing of an Individual.<BR/>Well the Individual here is a powerful gangster/criminal with lots of money and power...to coerce or even kill the witnesses against him...and destroy the evidence or worse...buy off the judiciary.<BR/>Even if u argue that innocent people die and the policemen claim them as gangsters....well let me tell you this.....is it possible for the police in this day and age....with the boom of the media...to even lay a hand on an innocent civilian....the would be hanged out to dry by the police department....and would probably get a prison sentence.<BR/>When a recent poll shows that 60% of the judiciary is corrupt...you wander whether desperate times call for Desperate Measures.<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>P.S You might wander that i am justifying "encounters" cos i was affected by the movie.....I am writing this because of personal experiences.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-5126465259940518822007-05-14T12:26:00.000+05:302007-05-14T12:26:00.000+05:30Bombay Addict, so if a person spends money, merit ...Bombay Addict, so if a person spends money, merit is not important..then why is merit issue raised when it comes to reservations..<BR/><BR/>and what about this - <A HREF="http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Diagnosis_Casteism/articleshow/2039283.cms" REL="nofollow"><BR/>"Having stood first in a selection examination five months ago in lab medicine, he should have got the more coveted of the two senior resident posts that were on offer at All India Institute of Medical Sciences. Except that Sukhbir Singh Badhal, a post-graduate from AIIMS, subverted an unstated rule. He topped the general category although he belongs to a reserved category, scheduled caste. AIIMS admin gave the coveted post in the main department of lab medicine to the second-rank holder in the general category, while Badhal was shunted to the trauma centre.."</A>wise donkeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02084116949920234832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-22756360680589417002007-05-13T18:32:00.000+05:302007-05-13T18:32:00.000+05:30Encounter might be accepted when it done for right...Encounter might be accepted when it done for right reasons,But not killing small-time criminal and his wife.Both the policeman have to be punished to stop these kinds of act in the future.<BR/><A HREF="http://www.breakdown-cover.net" REL="nofollow">Car Breakdown Cover</A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-21918258333242720332007-05-13T14:42:00.000+05:302007-05-13T14:42:00.000+05:30Ah, the A Nony Mice brigade of abuser and imperson...Ah, the A Nony Mice brigade of abuser and impersonator of themself makes its appearance, slew of comments within minutes of each other. Must be the usual: something's striking close to home. Apart from that, it can be safely ignored.<BR/><BR/>Jai, I didn't say you said a backlash is justified. Here's one last attempt to make things clear. Let's say my neighbour Mr Falana steals Rs 50 from my home. I'm so incensed that I go beat him to death. Now I can claim that I beat him because he stole from me. The theft is the cause of, the explanation for, my crime -- because I would not have beat him if he had not stolen from me. <BR/><BR/>However, it is emphatically <I>not</I> a justification for my crime: any court would throw it out as it deserves to be thrown out, if I offered as a justification. <BR/><BR/>If it is not clear, we'll have to leave it there. Other commentators who ran away with some ball don't interest me.<BR/><BR/>Nikhil, small time or not, sterling track record or not, that's not the point. He should have been tried and punished for his crimes, not shot dead by the police.<BR/><BR/>Sudeep, the criminal justice system being "dead" here is still no reason to support extra-judicial killings, and in fact is the worst reason to support them. Because then you give license to the police to kill anyone they choose, often (as you say) at the direction of political masters. Which means they often carry out political vendettas. <BR/><BR/>The points you present are the case for the far tougher job: reforming our police/judicial system. It's what every reasonable police officer out there -- Julio Ribeiro to Satish Sahney to many more -- are clamouring for. But instead of getting our teeth into that tougher job, we prefer the easier one: let the police kill people, then tell us that they were gangsters and terrorists, and we can then pretend that they are ffighting crime. <BR/><BR/>I'm not particularly concerned that you find what I say nauseating. To me, killing one innocent person is an unacceptably high price to pay. I would like to see police reforms get us heading towards that ideal.<BR/><BR/>I dug up caste? Allow me to repeat (with slight paraphrase) from earlier on this page:<BR/><I>A man is accused of a crime. Many people who belong to his community come out to protest this and support him, saying "we have to support our members." <BR/><BR/>I find this crazy and remark on it. <BR/><BR/>It's me who "dug up caste."<BR/><BR/>Learn something new every day</I>.<BR/><BR/>hsmv: if you care to read you'd see that there are things other than Gujarat here. But why bother with that? Easier to run about calling people pathetic.Dilip D'Souzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08221707482541503243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-49935459580126765092007-05-12T09:44:00.000+05:302007-05-12T09:44:00.000+05:30Do you ever write anything other than Gujarat? How...Do you ever write anything other than Gujarat? How bout for a change the Sex Racket in Churches in Kerala and the death of new borns in the Hospitals due to Unhygenic conditions?<BR/>Remember its the Gujarat own CID dept that exposed the encounter...how about something happening like that in Congress Governements...you pseudo seculars are really a pathetic lotSuryahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14899420117810419788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-14959727532931093062007-05-11T09:00:00.000+05:302007-05-11T09:00:00.000+05:30D,Heard of the Euston Manifesto? Food for though a...D,<BR/><BR/>Heard of the Euston Manifesto? Food for though at least, if not anything else<BR/><BR/>http://eustonmanifesto.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Itemid=1Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-12869781862808881072007-05-09T23:55:00.000+05:302007-05-09T23:55:00.000+05:30I dont know about you, I support extra judicial ki...I dont know about you, I support extra judicial killings, because:~<BR/><BR/>1) The criminal justice system is dead in India. Criminals frequently arent punished for their crimes. This guy who was bumped off had 52 (!!!!) cases registered against him. Cases of extortion, murder, possesion of illegal arms etc. His wife was simply 'collateral damage', i.e. an acceptable amount of damage as far as I am concerned.<BR/><BR/>2) Regular Police forces in India are undermanned, and are 10 steps behind criminals in technology. In their present state, they cant be expected to pursue high tech and well moneyed criminals.<BR/><BR/>3) Once indicted, habitual mafia criminal types often intimidate witnesses and manipulate evidence to get out of prison. Its far easier to execute them.<BR/><BR/>4) There is really no federal agency in India that can effectively investigate inter state crime. Criminals know this and take advantage of this.<BR/><BR/>5) I know that the policemen are one of us, (us includes you too), they take broad directions from people you and I elect. It isnt as black and white a picture as you want to paint.<BR/><BR/>Here are the things I find nauseating:~<BR/><BR/>I find your attitude to this whole affair where you support a known criminal against cops nauseating. There is no equivalence between the police and the criminal in this case.<BR/><BR/>You dig up caste in a totally irrelevant and irresponsible manner. Just goes to show that if a cat and dog had sex, you will find evidence of caste in it.<BR/><BR/>SudeepAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-57242543582102652922007-05-09T10:35:00.000+05:302007-05-09T10:35:00.000+05:30The 'apparently small time criminal' seems to have...The 'apparently small time criminal' seems to have a sterling track record<BR/><BR/>http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnist1.asp?main_variable=Columnist&file_name=ashok%2Fashok75%2Etxt&writer=ashokAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-87573832734103415622007-05-09T02:35:00.000+05:302007-05-09T02:35:00.000+05:30Scares me.Scares me.Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18411697702687310877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-41022189803828448622007-05-09T01:08:00.000+05:302007-05-09T01:08:00.000+05:30okay,explain/ justify:Got one clear difference. Ex...okay,<BR/><BR/>explain/ justify:<BR/>Got one clear difference. <BR/><BR/>Explanations can be used to understand *why* and hopefully to avoid recurrence. Analysis and explanation may be the only way to resolve conflicts.<BR/><BR/>The line to justification, is still not too clear but this isnt my blog/ space. <BR/><BR/>I admit to being a very "middle_class_moral" law & order guy who has trouble when somebody goes:<BR/><BR/>" *this* is why so & so bombed trains/ killed 55 ppl/ destroyed mosques/ etc."<BR/><BR/>unless they clearly state that this isnt justification.<BR/><BR/>Familiar territory for me, this is where I earned my first jump_hoop from you ("assume whatever you like about my stand on terrorism").<BR/><BR/>My final comment here. Sorry to take up so much commentspace.<BR/><BR/>Thank you,<BR/>JaiAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-91698265842466498252007-05-09T00:19:00.000+05:302007-05-09T00:19:00.000+05:30"..when you say a backlash is justified by some ev..."..when you say a backlash is justified by some events .."<BR/><BR/>1. Hope you noticed I didnt say that.<BR/><BR/>2. Actually the difference btwn explain / justify isnt as clear to me as it is apparently to you. <BR/><BR/> I dont really accept 'backlash' as explanation.<BR/><BR/>3. Taking my comments here as an example, some of it can be placed into a frame of "explanation" for encounters. <BR/><BR/>4. There is an element of justification creeping in too, that I can perceive. Other commentators here have run away with that ball.<BR/><BR/>5. I keep working on and thinking about this on my commentary. You seem to have clear cut definitions in place and no confusion. Good for you.<BR/><BR/>6. Lets agree to disagree and bring this digression to a close?<BR/><BR/>regards,<BR/>JaiAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-43906831889815796832007-05-09T00:03:00.000+05:302007-05-09T00:03:00.000+05:30Dilip, I understand why you wrote that piece in Te...Dilip, I understand why you wrote that piece in Tehelka regarding the people who comment. Some of your commentators ARE whackos :-).<BR/><BR/>No violent reaction can be justified, and in fact, if you start justifying violence, it means you are reconciled to the fact that you are living in an anarchy, governed by an impotent government. Riots, bomb blasts, can never be justified, they can only be termed as utter law and order failure and the ruling government/party should be held responsible for that.<BR/><BR/>Amrit<BR/><A HREF="http://www.writingcave.com" REL="nofollow">Writing Cave</A>Amrithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15185098200382864091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-41691992353239731902007-05-08T12:00:00.000+05:302007-05-08T12:00:00.000+05:30Jai, I'm still not sure. Among other things in tha...Jai, I'm still not sure. Among other things in that discussion, one thing I said was: people offer "backlash" as an explanation for events, and that I can see. Bom blasts were a backlash to the riots, killing across Gujarat was a backlash to the killing at Godhra, killing of Sikhs was a backlash to the murder of Indira, etc. <BR/><BR/>But when you say a backlash is justified by some events, there I cannot agree. The Bom riots did not justify the blasts, the killing at Godhra did not justify the killing across Gujarat, the murder of Indira did not justify the killing of Sikhs.<BR/><BR/>I mean, for example, Srikrishna was asked by the BJP-Sena govt to inquire into the causes of the blasts; he concluded that the riots led to the blasts. Meaning, the blasts were a backlash to the riots. He did not conclude that the blasts were justified by the riots; if they were justified, why did we spend a dozen years trying the blast accused?<BR/><BR/>An explanation is entirely different from a justification, and we should remember that difference despite the attempts of too many people to blur it.Dilip D'Souzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08221707482541503243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-77035385816047779882007-05-08T07:15:00.000+05:302007-05-08T07:15:00.000+05:30Dilip,1. New arguments for Afzal:Yes I recognise t...Dilip,<BR/><BR/>1. New arguments for Afzal:<BR/><BR/>Yes I recognise that. I was trying to point out that some of the arguments worked against him. Had to make conscious efforts to NOT get affected anti-Afzal by the politicking etc. <BR/><BR/>2. Fine line between explain/ justify:<BR/><BR/>Didnt want to publicize this site and discussion here- remember this is the one I had requested you to avoid in 'outreach', much better to talk with confused instead or something like that.<BR/><BR/>But I brought it up and so have to link it. Its the comment thread at:<BR/><BR/>http://www.sandeepweb.com/2004/08/16/indebted-to-dilip-dsouza/<BR/><BR/>Pls note that I am not saying you blur it. I dont know enough of your debating to comment on that. My chat partner here blurred and crossed that line quite a few times on the Guj2002 violence.<BR/><BR/>regards,<BR/>JaiAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-24159817719283045232007-05-08T00:06:00.000+05:302007-05-08T00:06:00.000+05:30I don't see why it is difficult to understand the ...I don't see why it is difficult to understand the alleged dichotomy in Dilip's reactions to caste. <BR/><BR/>When OBCs demand reservations Dilip, like some others, sees it as 'the best possible alternative' to righting some wrongs and bringing some balance. This is the only repreive that many underprivilaged can get(in spite of some well off OBCs getting benefits) without waiting for a tremendous policy which though based on things other than caste(say financial status in a country that has pathetic tax collections) will be implemented brilliantlyand quickly. <BR/><BR/>On the other hand when someone gives caste as a reason to support criminals, Dilip finds it unpalatable. <BR/><BR/>How is this hard to understand? When he supports OBC reservations he is only being a realist. <BR/><BR/>I on the other hand will proceed to move to Sweden where the people a happy, wear the most fashionable cocktail dresses suitably enhanced by glass ceilings everywhere<BR/><BR/>- ZapAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-27248420928022598982007-05-07T22:52:00.000+05:302007-05-07T22:52:00.000+05:30Jai:you say you are "open to new arguments" on the...Jai:<BR/><BR/>you say you are "open to new arguments" on the Afzal case. Well, that's precisely what some people are trying to do, offering new arguments.<BR/><BR/>I have no idea what you are getting at, re: walking a fine line. Could you clarify please?Dilip D'Souzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08221707482541503243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-78931955021830059612007-05-07T22:32:00.000+05:302007-05-07T22:32:00.000+05:30Nikhil,1. I am not *absolutely* convinced on the A...Nikhil,<BR/><BR/>1. I am not *absolutely* convinced on the Afzal case but I believe he has done enough to deserve the death penalty, and extraneous stuff like Kashmir politicking, or Arundhati's conspiracy theories should:<BR/> - not affect us pro-Afzal.<BR/> - not affect us anti-Afzal either, ie the case should be considered on its merits and not influenced by 'helpful' campaigning above.<BR/><BR/>2. Hope we can avoid the slippery slope thing here. I dont think all or even most encounter kills are motivated by the "these guys will get away otherwise" mentality, more because they the encounter crowd can get away with it. <BR/><BR/>3. You have a point in that with caste politics so very active today, it will be surprising if ppl DONT align themselves on caste lines. <BR/><BR/>As WD and others have pointed out however, we have been aligning that way anyway and its possible caste politics emerged out of that. It becomes chicken and egg.<BR/><BR/>regards,<BR/>JaiAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-88437898089595171942007-05-07T22:14:00.001+05:302007-05-07T22:14:00.001+05:30Dear Dilip, my only regret is you were not killed ...Dear Dilip, my only regret is you were not killed instead in one of those fake encounters. Maybe next time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-34612130676656706432007-05-07T22:14:00.000+05:302007-05-07T22:14:00.000+05:30Dilip ... nicely brings up caste even during a cas...<I>Dilip ... nicely brings up caste even during a case of encounter killing</I>.<BR/><BR/>Hmm.<BR/><BR/>A man is accused of a crime. Many people who belong to his community come out to protest this and support him, saying "we have to support our members." <BR/><BR/>I find this crazy and remark on it. <BR/><BR/>It's me who "brings up caste."<BR/><BR/>Learn something new every day.Dilip D'Souzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08221707482541503243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-59012666707301057872007-05-07T17:51:00.000+05:302007-05-07T17:51:00.000+05:30and why are you suprised that caste exists in urba...and why are you suprised that caste exists in urban India, just browse thru the matrimonial ads..<BR/><BR/>Matrimonial columns also prefer linguistic groups. So dont you also see linguistic preferences are also alive and kicking. Do you see ad's for a Mysore Brahmin that says alliances from Kashmiri/Bihari/UP Brahmins will do. <BR/>Matrimonial ad's prefer the same liguistic/caste/regional grouping mainly as it will be easy for the families to adjust.<BR/><BR/>Wise donkey<BR/>when it comes to issues like quotas based on caste or physically challenged, people focus so much on merits, where its assumed, "these people" are not equal.. but dont care to question if a quota or a college seat is gained thru money or contacts. after all the rich and the influential, even if they dont score the marks are always "better people". <BR/>Your comment does not hold water. At least the people gaining through money at least spend from their own pockets. First IIT/IIM seats are alloted purely on merit. It is only private colleges that give away seats based on money, influence etc. I have issues when the progeny of Laloo, Karunanidhi and Ramadoss have seats reserved for them. But Dilip for long has been such a champion of OBC quota that he nicely brings up caste even during a case of encounter killing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-30075165275211496782007-05-07T11:30:00.000+05:302007-05-07T11:30:00.000+05:30This has been so for years. Remember Javed Fawda? ...<I>This has been so for years. Remember Javed Fawda? Sada Pawle? Vijay Tandel? Add to those once familiar Bombay names from a decade ago..</I><BR/><BR/>perhaps add to that Khwaja Yunus?Bombay Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17813763491251675343noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-27921870394316057502007-05-07T10:50:00.000+05:302007-05-07T10:50:00.000+05:30mits also bothers me that the facts were not disco...mits also bothers me that the facts were not discovered by a process..what about the other killings, what if there are officers who have got away with it..<BR/>perhaps its time we have a system, to investigate these killings..and a faster stronger legal system. sounds boring, but that doesnt meann its unnecessary..<BR/><BR/><BR/>on the caste, wonder what would have happened if the officers and the victims had been from the same caste..<BR/>""He was the only one of us who made it big," one of these ralliers told the HT." arent the Vanjaras, Indians?? why does this seem so normal?<BR/><BR/>and why are you suprised that caste exists in urban India, just browse thru the matrimonial ads..<BR/><BR/>on the comments regarding reservation..just a thought..<BR/>when it comes to issues like quotas based on caste or physically challenged, people focus so much on merits, where its assumed, "these people" are not equal.. but dont care to question if a quota or a college seat is gained thru money or contacts. after all the rich and the influential, even if they dont score the marks are always "better people".wise donkeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02084116949920234832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-51236320233937956372007-05-07T10:32:00.000+05:302007-05-07T10:32:00.000+05:30@nikhilExcellent comment!@nikhil<BR/><BR/>Excellent comment!Bland Spicehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18118881822892452579noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-69593347308260139492007-05-07T10:30:00.000+05:302007-05-07T10:30:00.000+05:30Caste is definitely alive, as any moatrimonial pag...Caste is definitely alive, as any moatrimonial page in the leading dailies would testify; The 'respectability" of the family, the IIT-IIM-ification and NRIsation of the groom notwithstanding.<BR/><BR/>What saddens me most is that even in a national case like this instead of questioning the roots from where this rot emantes in our society, we are dishing out these medivialistic red herrings.Bland Spicehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18118881822892452579noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070362.post-60734270375488289602007-05-07T10:26:00.000+05:302007-05-07T10:26:00.000+05:30- undo the Afzal effect.Implement sentences that a...- undo the Afzal effect.<BR/>Implement sentences that are awarded after due process without extraneous considerations. <BR/><BR/>"Kashmir will burn" if Afzal is hanged was one example of a pretty bad argument put out by some ppl, that helps "encounter" proponents. <BR/><BR/>Yes. This is precisely the reason. When the law takes its due course and a sentence handed out - and there is no indication that the trial is unfair, there are enough people to step in and reverse the process. <BR/>Yes - Kashmir will burn because a kashmiri has been sentenced.<BR/>Some writers come up with books asking all sorts of questions and spinning conspiracy theories.<BR/><BR/>Now if Masood Azhar and his companions had been killed in an encounter, wouldnt the hijacking of the IA flight have been prevented?<BR/><BR/>Encounter killings will always be justified by a large section of the people as long as the justice system in the country keeps getting hijacked by vested interests. <BR/>When our political leaders ensure that rioters and terrorists are given ayurvedic masseurs, will the ordinary person not feel that this is an easy way out.<BR/><BR/>Regards caste being alive and kicking - it will be as long as politicians and other assorted travellers keep playing caste politics.<BR/>Now when we have the PM saying xxx community should have first claim on resources and yyy community should have reservations without data or any justification, when we coomunalise existing institutions that have been free of caste or communal viruses, when a community can riot when a despot is hanged in faraway Iraq then why deny the Vanjaras or any other caste their 15 minutes of fame?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com