December 12, 2008

Heinous events

"In 2002, Gujarat suffered one of the most profound tragedies in its long history, when extremist political leaders, including some associated with the VHP, incited riots that resulted in the deaths of thousands. Had I been able to foresee the role of the VHP in India in these heinous events, or anticipate that the VHP of America could possibly stand by silently in the face of its Indian counterpart's complicity in the events of Gujarat in 2002 -- thereby undermining the American group's cultural and humanitarian efforts with which I was involved -- I would not have associated with the VHP of America."

Sonal Shah, member of Barack Obama's transition team. From this article dated December 10 2008: "Under Pressure, Shah Renounces Hindu Group".

(Follow up to this).

39 comments:

Anonymous said...

Mr DSouza if your close associate a friend murders someone should you be vilified? Gujarat riots were due to HIndu and Muslim mobs not any particular organization.
Bottom line there is an organized xian movement to tarnish any thing Hindu. For power people like Sonal shah sell themselves to such groups. Xians will not allow a organized HIndu movement with all the money - Surya

ray said...

Hi,

I was reading ur blog posts and found some of them to be very good.. u write well.. Why don't you popularize it more.. ur posts on ur blog ‘Death Ends Fun’ took my particular attention as some of them are interesting topics of mine too;

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This way you can reach out to rambhai readers some of whom could become your ardent fans.. who knows.. :)

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Rahul Siddharthan said...

ray - I think lots of people already know about Dilip, and he's made it to the homepages and print editions of all the top media :) If you enjoy his articles (or anyone else's), why don't you yourself post links to them? The idea of an aggregating site (maybe like digg.com?) sounds good.

Anonymous said...

How would you rate the rape of 20000 women during bangladesh war.

I wonder who has thrown 50000 kashmiri natives out of their homes making them refugees in their own country.

I wonder who committed those crimes?

I wonder who is blowing themselves up these days in turn killing the innocent.

I wonder who wanted a separate nation.

Such a mystery, of course we won't say a word about it, after there are only 150 million of them, such a minority.

If you want to fight, fight impartially for once.

Anonymous said...

Not to forget that these Xian organizations also sidelined even IDRF. Man anything run by a Hindu is trashed around.

Look in Kerala how the Curches and the Goverment are running Sex camps in Church, why should CSI not be banned, or all these Xians who are related to such Organization?

DSouza sab has not even once mentioned Xian terrorism in NorthEast, everytime refers Godhra post riots and also conveniently forgetting how 60 womend and childeren were brutally set on fire.

These guys go around saying all this muslim terrorism is Coz of Babri Masjid..supporting terrorism directly and act as though they are saddened by it. Such false.
Just because an old structure built on a destroyed temple can make Muslims angry and take up arms and Kill Indians, what should the millions of other HIndu Indians do when their brothers and sisters were ethnically cleansed in Kashmir and NorthEast and other parts of India?
HIndus are being defensive Sir, yet Hindu Organizations are treated as though they brought down the twin towers.

- Surya

Anonymous said...

I have never heard Dilip's views on there events.

Dilip can you comment on these?

Dilip D'Souza said...

What the comments here have to do with Sonal Shah and her statement leave me scratching my head. But then it's not the first time the "Surya"s of this world have managed that.

Anonymous said...

The point is Sir you love to lap up any opportunity to refer Godhra in your own words or from other sources as demonstrated here. By the way do not forget to read an article on organizations started by folks that share the same mindset as you
http://www.haindavakeralam.com/HkPage.aspx?PAGEID=7782&SKIN=W

- Surya.

Rahul Siddharthan said...

Surya: until justice is done we must keep talking about the Gujarat riots. Mass murder on the scale of the Gujarat riots is terrorism ten times worse than the Mumbai attacks (because ten times as many people died).

Anonymous said...

You are right, the other events have nothing to do with Sonal Shah but then you have done the same by talking about Gujrat Riots during Mumbai attacks.

Both are injustices, you choose to bring one up at your convenience.

All I am asking is be fair, there are enough atrocities to condemn.

I have not seen you rally behind the Kashmiri hindus being thrown out by their state mates.

This injustice has been there longer than Guj Riots if I remember correctly.

Anonymous said...

The Germans who helped saved thousands of lives in Nanking (The Rape of Nanking) were Nazis.

Does that make them as cruel and ruthless as Nazis?

Anyways,I give a rats ass about Sonal Shah, if she is guilty punish her.

Nikhil said...

Now that it has been proved that these terror attacks were masterminded in Pakistan -from Kasab's own confession and not by 'ghouls who have been distressed by lack of justice for Delhi 1984 and Gujarat 2002, would you now at least state that all peace initiatives should be suspended unless Pakistan gets serious about dismantling terror camps?
But as we know about Dilip - different strokes for different folks particularly if they happen to be Hindus.

Dilip D'Souza said...

> I have not seen you rally behind the Kashmiri
> hindus being thrown out by their state mates.

Plenty of those Kashmiri Hindus have themselves seen what I have written about that, so I'll let it be there.

> if she is guilty punish her.

I'm not aware of any effort to try Sonal Shah and find her "guilty" of some crime. I'm just offering you here what she said about the VHP and the VHP-A.

> different strokes for different folks particularly
> if they happen to be Hindus.

What I want: punishment for terrorists. Whether they are the terrorists who killed about 175 in Bombay two weeks ago (and in fact 9 of the 10 were punished, by being killed), or the terrorists who killed about 3000 in Delhi in 1984, or the terrorists who killed about 250 in Bombay in March 1993 (and most of them have been punished after a trial too), or the terrorists who killed about 1000 in Gujarat in 2002 ...

I want every single one of these terrorists punished.

Yet when I say so, naturally there are guys who will pop up to say making such a call for every single terrorist to be punished is actually "different strokes for different folks particularly if they happen to be Hindus."

By now I'm long past trying to extract an explanation for this twisting. Because I know, twisters don't have anything but twisting.

Anonymous said...

Key changes in pseudo secularists midset post 26/11

1. One Law for All ( Can I take this as Uniform Civil Code...it is such a great idea...don't know why pseudos opposed it all the time. with Uniform Civil Code in place, we might have prevented the terrible stats compiled by Dilip )

2. Defend India's borders (land and naval).

3. Treat all Indians death with respect , irrespective of how 'posh' they are.

I'm feeling a bit surreal.....Don't know if I'm becoming a pseudo or psuedos are coming over to my side....

Whatever it is...so long as we all agree on points 1,2 & 3 it is fine.

I'm just waiting for Arundhati Roy defence of the 26/11 accused. She has a good command of English...I'm sure she'll find a cunning angle

Baldrick...Is there a cunning plan!

Rahul Siddharthan said...

I, for one, support a uniform civil code. But it should not be based on current Hindu family law, which contains all sorts of provisions discriminatory to women (though admittedly not as bad as other religions' personal laws). A uniform civil code should treat all Indians equally.

Anonymous said...

Rahull... I fully agree with you...It should not be based on any religious law Hindu, Muslim or Christian...it should be based on the universally acceptaed legal principles of the 19th, 20th and 21st century. It should not only limit to humans should extend to animal kind as well.

If I had asked for Uniform Civil Code in this blog a few years ago...I'm sure Dilip and co would have called me an extremist....Oh my .....Kasab and Co. have ripped open the pseudo masks....

You know what, pseudo still have slave mentality. For them anything foreign is prestige...foreign awards, articles published in foreign newspapers...anthying Indian is shit....that's why it took a 26/11 for them to review their stand on certain things...varanasi, jaipur, coimbatore, bangalore, hyderabad didn't matter to them as much as Cafe Leopold.

Anonymous said...

In his previous post Dilip says
What I want: punishment for terrorists.

Uniform Civil Code is what will get us there.

Dilip..Do you support Uniform Civil Code?...Take a stand man

Rahul Siddharthan said...

anonymous: evidently you haven't read many (or any?) of Dilip's writings -- perhaps just paragraphs quoted out of context on whatever rightwingnut mailing lists you happen to be on.

Dilip D'Souza said...

About the Uniform Civil Code, not that I follow what it has to do with this post ...

... I first wrote about the argument over the UCC for the Sunday Observer in 1995. (Before Web times, so no link). Different versions of that article appeared in a few different places after that. A version I did for rediff.com in 2003 is here: Cognate, Meet Agnate; Now Get Lost.

1995 is 13 years ago. Does that qualify as "a few years ago"? Who's to say?

Anonymous said...

guys..Can we call this off...Both sides have laid out their ideas and intentions....as awlays I need to read in between the lines to the message.

To summarise, we are all nationalists now and we wish no evil upon other nations. At the same time we don't want to be messed around...

Universalism , I think, will remain an Utopian dream..at least in our lives...However the impending global warming will rap on our knuckes and teach us the noble lesson of Sarva Jana Sukhino Bhavanthu.

Rahul Siddharthan said...

"Let's call it off": that's hilarious. Almost as good as this. "All right, we'll call it a draw".

(I was wondering whether Mr Anonymous would say "sorry, I haven't actually read you before, Dilip, and now that I just did, I fully agree on the UCC." No such luck, of course.)

Dilip D'Souza said...

Rahul, re: your wondering immediately above ... you do live in some kind of utopia, don't you?

Anonymous said...

Dilip,

If you written equally about the plight of Kasmiri Pandits, I take my comments back.

I did know about it, please provide links to your old articles if they are online.

I apologize.

Rahul Siddharthan said...

anonymous: Learn to use a search engine.

But I am surprised and impressed at your apologising over the other matter.

Jai_Choorakkot said...

Dilip, Rahul,

The thing to note from Sonal's statement, IMHO is how the radicals are meshed with others: a softer cultural / humanitarian side, in all these orgs.

Reminds me of Jamaat-ud-Dawa/ LeT doing earthquake relief and some social work in Pak.

I recently received from a proud parent photos of his kid dressed up as baby Krishna; event was set up by the VHP. Maybe many Hindus softlight the org because its more in these contexts that they get to see it.

But the guys I talked to know there is something else going on somewhere else, I dont completely buy Ms.Shah's explanation.

One way of weakening VHP maybe to build alternative cultural platforms that celebrate Hinduness but without the "other" baggage.

regards,
Jai

Nikhil said...

Again you avoid answering the main question I posed:
Do we need to review all peace process and similar ties with Pakistan now that the terrorist connections have been revealed and Pakistan gets serious about dismantling terrorist infrastructure.

Dilip D'Souza said...

Again you avoid answering the main question I posed.

I'll gladly answer it. After you give me the explanation for what you have suggested several times in this space: that calling for every single terrorist to be punished, whether Gujarat '02 or Bombay '08 or elsewhere, actually amounts to "different strokes for different folks particularly if they happen to be Hindus" (your words).

Dilip D'Souza said...

Rahul and the anonymous concerned, I'm surprised and impressed too.

I'd like to take back my sarcastic jibe above, of 8:02 this morning.

Jai_Choorakkot said...

I dont think "Nikhil" will be back anytime soon with that explanation Dilip :-) but I for one would really like to know your thoughts on his question, here or a separate post.

I know you have previously said "trust but verify" and generally on the need to keep engaged or talking (not your exact words, as close as I can remember thats the gist).

My question though is "how far can we take that trust?"

1. What level of attack would qualify as a breach of trust?

2. What level of waffling:

"JuD is banned, no not really, well maybe tomorrow, we dont have evidence, we'll be letting them go soon..."

would amount to breach of trust?

3. How many times and different faces /posts Pak PM/CEO/ President do we hear this from before we can conclude that this isnt going anywhere?

4. If we do conclude that, what would you suggest as the way forward?

Thanks,
Jai

Daniel said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Daniel said...

@ Dilip:

Good of Sonal to renounce these links. I don't suppose we will ever know how she really feels, but the VHP is clearly an organisation of hate.

@ Surya:

If you read this, I'd love to discuss your thoughts with you. Blogging etiquette doesn't allow me to argue with you on a third party's blog, so feel free to contact me on mine. I'd love to help you out of that web of lies and hate that you've got yourself trapped in.

Anonymous said...

Daniel - the web of lies and hate is actually the creation of the Xian run Commmie media, that elites like you follow. I do not hate anyone though they kills indians with both bombs and ideology. We hindus are now defensive position on the outcomes of our liberal and secular actions.(right from allowing Xian missionaries into this land centuries ago) - Surya

Anonymous said...

For a better example of web of lies and hate see 3ABN's IF2F program. - Surya

Dilip D'Souza said...

see 3ABN's IF2F program.

Forgive me, but IHNI what UR TA.

Daniel said...

@ Surya:

Like I said earlier, mail me.

Nikhil said...

Dilip & Jai
Glad to explain:
I have repeated this several times:

Asking for all terrorists to be punished on blogs is one thing - but actions are another thing

First -
One of the accused in the 1984 killings was appointed a cabinet minister in Manmohan Singh's cabinet. But was there ever a reprimand against this as compared to the times you have lamented (and rightly so)against the likes of Manohar Joshi, Sarpotdar and Modi holding positions of power. Manmohan Singh was in your columns then was lauded as a man of integrity and vision.

1993 bombings - the only people who have been sentenced so far are the small fry all the people doing the dirty work. The masterminds of this - Dawood and Tiger Memon are safe in Pakistan. -Now do you not always advocate unconditional peace with Pakistan?
Have you ever stated or would you suggest that any peace initiatives with Pakistan should involve the handing over of Dawood and Tiger Memon by Pakistan? If you have stated this anywhere, I apologize and withdraw my statement.

1992 riots
You rightly demand that Shiv Sena rioters should be brought to justice. But what about Radhabhai chawl? The acccused got a defence lawyer appointed by a prominent pokitician and were acquitted. Has Teesta Setalvad and others who are pursuing every case in Gujarat ever tried to reexamine this case? Have you in your columns ever demanded that the accused should be tried

Afzal Guru
This man was declared guilty by the highest court and he did not even file a mercy petition. All human rights people have hijacked his case. – Nobody complains of a miscarriage of justice – the same court that acquitted his co-conspirator declared him guilty. Do his victims – the officers who died during the attack not deserve justice.

Now can all of you blame Advani, Thackeray and Modi when they go around defending their own blue eyed boys?

The point was my statement earlier and repeated below: When everybody in this country has his own agenda, how is it ever possible to have justice?

Dilip D'Souza said...

> Asking for all terrorists to be punished on blogs
> is one thing - but actions are another thing

Fair enough, but I write. I have been part of an effort to deliver justice in court, but primarily, I write. With that in mind ...

1984 killings: I have written plenty of times about the complete absence of justice there, including making Tytler a minister, the acquittal of Sajjan Kumar and Bhagat, etc. I feel no particular need to defend what I've written about what I believe was the worst crime, the worst attack of terrorism, in our history.

1992-3 riots and 1993 bombings: You may call the people sentenced for the bombings "small fry", but the undeniable fact is, there was a trial that lasted 12+ years, and 150+ accused spent all that time in jail before receiving their sentences. Here's the simple question: Has there been anything comparable regarding the riots, whether small fry or large fry or any fry? This is the imbalance of justice that I believe undermines India. If we are unwilling to bring to justice the small and large fry in India who are responsible for killing large numbers of Indians, why should anyone, let alone we ourselves, take seriously our demands to other countries to hand over the large fry?

I have always demanded that all the criminals of the 1992-93 killings (or any other killings) be brought to justice: I don't care who they are. If you respond to this saying "what about Radhabai Chawl?", my reaction can only be, why would you think I don't mean those killers?

I've never advocated "unconditional peace" with Pakistan. That makes no sense to me. "Trust, but verify" is by definition not unconditional.

Afzal Guru: I remain perturbed by a SC judgement that says, and I quote, "the collective conscience of
the society will only be satisfied if the capital punishment is awarded to the offender." It is my belief that our courts are required to deliver justice based on the merits or otherwise of the case, not on what some "collective conscience" suggests. Of course I believe Afzal's victims deserve justice; but I believe that justice is undermined by such a statement from the highest court in the land.

Finally, I speak for myself. Not for anyone else. Whether that is an agenda, I will leave to you to decide.

Now, I await the next time I'm asked about "different strokes for different folks particularly if they happen to be Hindus."

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