April 05, 2011

Soothing the pain

So Shahid Afridi's got on a lot of people's nerves, after he returned home? Yes, mine too; in that sense rather reminiscent of Shoaib Malik apologizing to Muslims across the globe after losing the T20 World Cup final to India in '07.

But let's make a shortlist of things Afridi may have had in mind, why not?

* "Once he gives the aadesh, who can flout it?" -- a Shiv Sena leader tells us last February that his leader will "decide" whether Pakistan can play in Mumbai if they reach the final.

* "randee key bachay u give full toss to javed" and other choice abuse directed at Chetan Sharma. Part of one of the comments on this clip, of an event that happened a quarter century (!) ago. (i.e. it's even odds that the commenter wasn't even born when the event happened).

* That same event from a quarter century ago described as a "collective traumatic wound".

* The Indians who buzzed around my neighbourhood late into the night after India beat Pakistan in the semifinals, shouting "Pakistan ke maa ki chut!"

* Remarks such as "you fuck afridi have biggest heart for terrorist extremist rapist", besides plenty more.

* Gautam Gambhir being asked if beating Pakistan "will soothe the pain" of the victims of 26/11, and replying "I am sure the win against Pakistan would have helped."

* Gambhir is told: "whatever we do, whoever we play, we should never lose to Pakistan".

Some of this is just the usual paranoia about Pakistan too many Indians seem unable to shake.

I wonder though, about cricket "fans" who seem uninterested in who else the Indian team loses to, so long as we "never lose to Pakistan". My hope is that someday we will tell Gambhir: go play your heart out and win every time, whether your opponent is Australia or Pakistan or Zimbabwe or Fiji. We're not obsessed merely with beating Pakistan.

I also wonder how beating Pakistan helps "soothe the pain" of the 26/11 victims. Leave aside the "it's just a game" (it never is) rhetoric. What is the connection between the murderous scum who came ashore to kill Indians in November 2008 and Afridi's team?

The scum and the team are all Pakistani, you say?

Then consider this: what is the connection between the murderous scum who killed 3000 Indians in Delhi in 1984 and Dhoni's team? Those scum and the team are all Indian, right? So how would you react if someone said that beating the Indian team will help "soothe the pain" of the 3000 victims of the 1984 massacre? How would you react if someone said our loss to South Africa in the league stage of the World Cup had helped "soothe the pain" of the victims of the 1984 massacre?

I know how I'd react: with revulsion and nausea. The absurdity of such a suggestion is matched only by the absurdity of Gambhir's suggestion about 26/11. Yet not only was Gambhir not asked questions about this absurdity, the headline on that news item is "I play for India, I play for people of my country."

I've seen some baffled comment about Afridi, saying that since he was applauded for his remarks in Pakistan, the middle class there must agree with him, they must have similar attitudes towards India. Well, what should we make of the reaction in India to Gambhir's remark, as also to the other remarks I've quoted above? Do we agree with Gambhir's remark?

Be outraged over Afridi, sure. (I am). But there may be something to be learned from the friendly neighbourhood mirror.

63 comments:

Harshad said...

Sir,

I presume this interview happened before the finals. I saw his interview after the final win in which he explained tributing his innings and the win to the soldiers who lost their lives in fighting the terrorists on 26/11. He was sheerly moved after entering the renovated Taj and decided to do so. I don't think that makes it exactly as absurd as you have pointed it out.

A Man With No Name said...

Bulletproof logic, except for one small thing. If, hypothetically, India had sent a well-trained, murderous bunch of scum to kill civilians in Pakistan, Sri Lanka, or Australia, then the cricketers from those countries would be perfectly right to make such a statement.

PS: Both 1984 and 2002 were the result of clashes between two sections of Indian community. Pakis or anyone else has no business pointing their fingers at us. If anything, we should point our fingers at ourselves and ask where we failed.

Dilip D'Souza said...

Harshad, he said exactly this: beating the Pakistani team would help "soothe the pain" the 26/11 victims felt. Other stuff he said or didn't say doesn't change this.

Man WNN: Nobody's saying anything about cricketers or anyone else from other countries.

here's the analogy.

a) Maniacs from one country (Pak) kill nearly 200 Indians in Nov 2008. Gambhir says defeating that country's cricket team will "soothe the pain" of the victims of that atrocity.

b) Maniacs from another country (India) kill about 3000 Indians in Nov 1984. What if someone says that defeating that country's cricket team will "soothe the pain" of the victims of that atrocity?

If (b) is absurd (as I think it is), why is (a) not absurd?

Anonymous said...

Sikh was "domestic violence". Perhaps a national sport, but our own affair. Nothing to do with international cricket. World Cup is entirely different. Get your twisted logic in gear Mr. Paki-lover!

Dilip D'Souza said...

More grist to Afridi's mill: if you point out absurdity by an Indian player, you're a "Paki-lover", and that presumed to be an insult.

That apart, the reasoning in this comment is breathtaking.

* "Sikh was 'domestic violence' ... World Cup is entirely different."

* "Sikh ... Nothing to do with international cricket." Ah, and exactly what does 26/11 have to do with international cricket?

* "our own affair". Really? Why? Because you say so? But let's see where that goes, shall we? Suppose Monty Panesar makes some remark about the 1984 killings -- after all, if his father happened to be in Delhi in those weeks it's entirely possible he would have been murdered -- so what would you tell him? It's "our own affair"?

Chandru K said...

The old India Pakistan equal equal drone like rubbish. It seems there is a vocal group of Indians who will go out of there way to badmouth India and defend or mitigate Pakistan, by raising the issue of some injustice or violence within India itself( communal riots, casteism, bride burning, drunk driving?) Eeeeeech.

radhika misra said...

The more I read comments at your blog DD, the more I am amazed at how questions make people uncomfortable.

I think it is absurd, to say that somehow the win against Pakistan can in anyway "soothe the victims' (26/11) pain". it is absurd, stupid and cruel.

Afridi in my opinion is crying because he lost.

But what about all the offensive slogans and photos all over the web? we all saw the "de ghuma ke" photoshop job. the haramkhoro ko comment to the pakistani team and so on.

we mustn't be so quick to judge, it wasn't long ago that we attacked dhoni and kaif's homes.

why is asking questions equated with insulting india?

Anonymous said...

Well perhaps the comment was tongue in cheek. It is so illogical, Captain. Klingon-lovers are today well-respected.

Dilip D'Souza said...

why is asking questions equated with insulting india?

Because, Radhika, commenters like the one before you are consumed with their own hatreds.

I mean, this is not even about "equating" (not that there's something wrong with that). This is about Gambhir's comment, and so many others directed at Pakistan.

Nikhil said...

First and foremost, we are talking about cricketers - not various fire breathers. So get the Thackeray fixation etc and lets move on.
Gambhir dedicated his win to victims. He never badnouthed Pakistanis or a community in genral. Nor did he sepak of avenging Pakistan. He must have felt the pain of most of those who died on 26/11.
Afridi did exactly that - badmouthed Indians and Non muslims.
So showing empathy to victims equals spewing venom at other people / communities. Great logic Dilip.

BTW even Sachin Tendulkar dedicated his century against England just after the match to victims of 26/11
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story/121621/Sports/tendulkars-ton-against-england-after-26/11-his-best-flintoff.html

So ok you have scored some brownie points with your candlelight brigadewalas. Why not another round of e mails?
Chandrubhai and others -Dilip needs the Aman, candlelight industry for his supper. So dont stop his paychecks from coming in.

Dilip D'Souza said...

Ah yes, it's the guys who, with no ammo left, choose the "he's being paid to say his stuff" tack. Welcome, old insinuator.

You who are watching might also notice the careful game that's going on here. For one thing, there's the mention that SRT "dedicated his century against England just after the match to victims of 26/11", complete with a link.

Of course, if you visited the link, you'll find there's no mention of SRT dedicating his century.

But that's besides the point. What's also going on here is a careful go-around with semantics. I have no problem with SRT dedicating his century against England to the victims of 26/11, contrary to the insinuation that I do have such a problem.

Gambhir did something just slightly different. He said beating Pakistan would "soothe the pain" of the victims of 26/11. That's stepping into the absurd.

But for insinuators who hope to get away with insinuation, such difference matters not at all.

Suresh said...

Without defending Mr. Gambhir's current statement, he does seem to be an unusual guy. I cannot readily think of any Indian cricketer, past or present, with the possible exception of Rahul Dravid, who could make this statement.

It is worth noting though that Gambhir has said something about "soothing the pain of the 26/11 victims" even before the World Cup started. From the same interview alluded to above:

You seem to have given up on the system?

No, that is not the case, I have faith in it but frankly it is easier for me because I'm an India cricketer. For a common man it is a battle for survival. The other day I was watching highlights of our recent win over the Kiwis and I was telling myself that I took over as captain for that series on 26/11, two days before the first game in Guwahati. Now, 26/11 means so many different things to different people. I just hope our 5-0 win in that series could play a part in soothing some of the pain of 26/11 victims.

Ranvir said...

With Ref: >>>> "What is the connection between the murderous scum who came ashore to kill Indians in November 2008 and Afridi's team?"

Dilip, there's no connection other than that those murderous scum involved in 26/11 terror attack were MOTIVATED, TRAINED, EQUIPPED, FINANCED, TRANSPORTED, ORDERED to kill Indians in keeping with Zulfikar Ali Bhutto's "We will bleed India with a thousand cuts".

And they were INSTRUCTED (via satellite comm) all along the killing.

It was a military operation carried out by Pakistan. Its long term intent is to see India destroyed. 26/11 was a part of that intent. Military operation, do you understand, Dilip?

All killing is to be condemned. But this is where the carnages you mentioned differ from 26/11.

26/11, Dilip, if it is possible for you to look beyond your defensiveness with anything remotely concerning a minority community, was an act of war (it is another matter that India has no deterrence to prevent similar atrocities) against India, carried out like a platoon of soldiers would.

Dilip, this (26/11) was different from the other atrocities that you mention to draw equality to for many reasons, not in the least because it was executed to also undermine the country, to undermine its growth, to undermine its people.

If you cared enough to read more about it, you will have heard about how those 26/11 terrorists spared lives of some terrified people who claimed to be Muslims. Read the accounts.

And it is this very 'Muslim' thing that Afridi raised in his comment to the effect that "They (India and by implication Hindus) cannot be large hearted like us Pakistanis, us Muslims".

Afridi further implying "We are not the same and cannot live together, meaning muslims are somehow better because "Allah has given us large hearts"

This "Muslim is better than Hindus" might have been tolerated as mere (and harmless) one-upmanship if it was not for India's history with invaders of Muslim origin over 1000 years, and continued terrorist strikes in India, and the wars a Islamic Pakistan inflicted on India.


And Dilip, combine this Afridi parallel with the fact that 26/11 was carried out by muslims sent in by Pakistan.

So Afridi's "They (India) can't be like us Muslims" DID NO GOOD and IMPLIED MUCH WORSE.

The Muslim League that partitioned India said the same thing that Afridi did - "We (muslims) are different and cannot live together with Hindus".

Ranvir said...

Reference >>> Gambhir did something just slightly different. He said beating Pakistan would "soothe the pain" of the victims of 26/11. That's stepping into the absurd.


Why is it absurd? Because it will make (Pakistanis) feel guilty? Because it will help draw the attention to the 26/11 carnage which Pakistan is hoping everyone will forget and they will not be forced to do anything, not one single thing, against the culprits roaming about untouched in Pakistan?

Shy absurd?

Dilip did you also hear the obsfucation Afridi attampted by saing "Who knows who did it (26/11)?

Wah so captain of Pakistan team says "Who knows who carried out 26/11"

Well if that is the case they (Pakistanis) need to be reminded of who did it.

Gautam Gambhir's dedication reminded tham of it so no wonder they were roiled.

Ranvir said...

Reference >>>>> Because, Radhika, commenters like the one before you are consumed with their own hatreds.



So Dilip are you some exhalted soul who has achieved some kind of Nirvana and deep peace that allows you to go about labelling others as "consumed by their own hatred"?

Nothing makes you angry Dilip? Nothing? Sure, many things do. And you rant about them as angrily as many do about what Pakistan has inflicted on this country.

So Dilip how is their anger about this aspect any different than your anger about other aspects?

The only difference is Dilip, you can employ your supraior writings skills to convey your anger so it does not look like hatred while others cannot.

It is anger Dilip that India has not been able to deter this. This anger has built of six decades.

Dilip D'Souza said...

Precisely Suresh. I was hoping someone would remember that earlier interview I quoted.

Gambhir is clearly a thoughtful man; this made his recent remarks ("never lose to Pakistan", and thus that victory "soothing the pain") even more baffling to me.

Ranvir, and a non-military operation by untrained killers ended up slaughtering over 15 times as many Indians in Nov 1984.

Did that slaughter not "undermine the country, undermine its growth, undermine its people"? (Were those 3000 Indians and their devastated families not undermined?)

I am always awestruck (apart from angry) how people will pick on any number of irrelevancies -- my superior writing skills, some apparent anger that supposedly I don't feel, six decades of something, on and on -- to avoid addressing the issues I raised.

Which are the series of comments and attitudes (aadesh, randee kay bachay, maa ki chut, etc) that Afridi might have had in mind.

Which is also the parallel I drew: if there's a connection between murderous Pakistani scum and Afridi's team, the same logic gives us a connection between murderous Indian scum and Dhoni's team.

Refute those if you like, instead of waxing on about my anger and writing skills.

Dilip D'Souza said...

By the way I forgot this: Because it will help draw the attention to the 26/11 carnage which Pakistan is hoping everyone will forget and they will not be forced to do anything, not one single thing, against the culprits roaming about untouched in Pakistan?

Let's change a few words and see what we get, OK?

What, in your opinion, will help draw the attention to the 1984 carnage that India is hoping everyone will forget and they will not be forced to do anything, not one single thing, against the culprits roaming about untouched in India?

Please do attempt an answer.

Please feel free to substitute other dates and carnages.

Chandru K said...

And D'Souza is making a false comparison to begin with. Afridi apologised to all Moslems for losing to India, whereas Gambhir dedicated the win( pending) to the *victims* of 11/26. Big difference.

The equivalent would be someone like Gambhir apologising to all Hindus or adherents of Indic religions, for losing a cricket match to a team from a non-Indic/Abrahamic religion.

Oh, and in this argument, let's not lose track of something very important: India's world cup win. Congratulations to the Indian team!

Dilip D'Souza said...

Gambhir dedicated the win (pending) to the *victims* of 11/26.

Ah, the usual lies too.

Gambhir's own words were said "on the eve of the WC final", published on the day of the final -- i.e. all *after* the win over Pakistan; and those words were, and I quote again: "I am sure the win against Pakistan would have helped" (i.e. helped "soothe the pain").

This idea of "soothing the pain" via the victory over Pakistan is turned into a "dedication" of a "pending" win to the victims.

How an already completed match is considered "pending" is beyond me, but that kind of puerile lying is apparently what people consumed with hatred must resort to.

No more from me on this.

Urvashi said...

Hey D'Souza I see you mentioned 2001 Gujarat riots but forget to list Godhra killings preceeding it.

I see you mentioned 1992 Bombay riots but forget to mention the Dawwood executed and ISI-sponsored Bombay bomb blasts that were designed to kill Hindus and killed over 300 (including non-Hindus) before those Bombay riots broke out. I narrowly missed dying in them blasts.

I see you mentioned 1984 riots but forget to mention the campaign of killings Bhindranwale pursued against Hindus before 1984, the same politics that led to Operation Bluestar.

Did you forget to mention these in oversight or was it delibrate?

Why not ask those to be mentioned as well.

Saby said...

Dilip, u ask, "here's the analogy.

a) Maniacs from one country (Pak) kill nearly 200 Indians in Nov 2008. Gambhir says defeating that country's cricket team will "soothe the pain" of the victims of that atrocity.

b) Maniacs from another country (India) kill about 3000 Indians in Nov 1984. What if someone says that defeating that country's cricket team will "soothe the pain" of the victims of that atrocity?

If (b) is absurd (as I think it is), why is (a) not absurd?"
---

Ans: Concept of nation-state.

When people of one nation go and indiscriminately kill people of other nation, then that is an act of war which 26/11 definitely was. In case b) members one community were killed & looted by members of other community belonging to SAME nation.

On humanitarian grounds both are equally despicable, but Gambhir was referring to the win providing some form of closure. We could not retaliate to the foreign aggression militarily but we did symbolically.

Cricket between India & Pak is always emotionally charged courtesy partition and all sorts of past and PRESENT wars. Letting go could have been easier for us, if Porkis could stop sponsoring terror and get busy with building their own nation and let us live ours.

Just my 2 cents. i hope you don't reply back as a wagah-candle junkie.

Urvashi said...

Before asking Ranvir to refute your lame defence of all things Pakistani, you first refute what Ranvir commented on, and please spare your sanctimonius and self righteouss urge to label opinions other than your own as Ah, the usual lies too. and the even more insulting but that kind of puerile lying is apparently what people consumed with hatred must resort to.

So your puerile lying, not to speak of your twisted logic in equating one country's war against another as in 26/11 is somehow equal to the riots between two communities belonging to the same country is a more saintly truth?

First answer Ranvir's distinction between Gambhir's dedication and Afridi's bigotry.

1. "Allah gave us muslims larger (and better) hearts than them (Indians but Hindus primarily).

Ranvir correctly said it is the same argument that sees Pakistani minorities butchered over real and imagined slights to Islam. It is the same argument that Muslim League put out to partition India.

It is the same argument that brainwashes muslim terrorists to wreck mayhem in India.

2. Pakistani state (via Ranvir) "MOTIVATED, TRAINED, EQUIPPED, FINANCED, TRANSPORTED, ORDERED to kill Indians in keeping with Zulfikar Ali Bhutto's "We will bleed India with a thousand cuts"."

26/11 assumes importance in ways incomparable to other atrocities.

3. Afridi also said "who knows who did the 26/11"

HaHa. Classic denial. Doesn't much of Pakistan still believe that 9/11 was done by Americans and Jews????? No?

Denial of 26/11 so beautifully expressed by Afridi only lays India open to more attacks because there is no guilt of having carried out the attacks since they are denied and can be denied.

And here you try to draw a parallel between Gambhir and Afridi's statements.

Afridi, if know a bit of the Tableeghi mentorship (starting with Saeed Anwar before Inzamam Ul Haq was converted to it, the same Tableeghi Jammat that pushed for Yousouf Yohanna's conversion from Christanity to Islam.

Afridi's statement about

"Allah gave us pakistanis and muslims larger hearts then them (Hindus)" ------ "Who knows who did 26/11" ------- "We cannot co-exist with them" ------> is a Tableeghi Jamaat foot soldier's face.

And you still insist on comparing Gambhir speaking for 26/11 victims with Islamist spokesperson??

Refute this first.

Dilip D'Souza said...

"Urvashi", where do I begin?

* You "see" things, but clearly you don't read. And you tell lies.

* I have not mentioned the "2001 Gujarat riots". I have not mentioned the "1992 Bombay riots".

* If what you mean is the violence in Gujarat, it happened in 2002, not 2001.

* I prefer to call it "massacre" rather than "riot" (whether Bombay 1992 or Gujarat 2002) but that's my personal preference.

* Last time I checked, Godhra was in Gujarat. So even if I had mentioned the Gujarat massacres, Godhra would have been included by definition. Or do you have some other convoluted geography in your mind?

* If you narrowly missed dying in the blasts, that may explain why you have twisted the history around in the hope that nobody will notice. The violence in Bombay happened in December 1992 and January 1993. The bomb blasts happened on March 12 1993. How you claim the blasts happened "before" the other massacres, when they actually happened two months after, is a mystery you should attempt to explain some time. It's remarkable how you and so many others tell this lie, though it no longer surprises me.

* ISI- and Dawood-sponsored the bombs may have been, but it would be interesting to learn from you exactly how they "were designed to kill Hindus". Are these the "smart bombs" we keep hearing about? Do they have some nefarious new technology that determines the religion of their victims? And did this technology, by your own admission that they killed "non-Hindus" as well, fail spectacularly? Please explain, won't you?

Try to answer the questions, "Urvashi". Try to tell the truth -- some of us still remember our history, you know. And try too to read what you choose to comment on.

Dilip D'Souza said...

Saby, I have no real argument with much of your comment. Except:

Letting go could have been easier for us, if Porkis could stop sponsoring terror and get busy with building their own nation and let us live ours.

What do you think it will take for us to "let go" the massacres of thousands of Indians in 1984, 1992-93, 2002?

I mean, do try to understand this: there are guys like me who will not let go those massacres until there is some kind of justice done. There are lots of guys like that, too, many of whom were far more directly affected than I was.

Give it a thought.

Dilip D'Souza said...

"Urvashi", let me guess, you ARE "Ranvir"?

First answer Ranvir's distinction between Gambhir's dedication and Afridi's bigotry.

There is nothing to answer. Get used to it. For let me repeat a few paras from an earlier comment:

I am always awestruck (apart from angry) how people will pick on any number of irrelevancies -- my superior writing skills, some apparent anger that supposedly I don't feel, six decades of something, on and on -- to avoid addressing the issues I raised.

Which are the series of comments and attitudes (aadesh, randee kay bachay, maa ki chut, etc) that Afridi might have had in mind.

Which is also the parallel I drew: if there's a connection between murderous Pakistani scum and Afridi's team, the same logic gives us a connection between murderous Indian scum and Dhoni's team.

Refute those if you like, instead of waxing on about my anger and writing skills.

And if you and/or "Ranvir" don't choose to address/refute the point(s) I made in my post -- which is the subject at hand here -- please don't expect me to focus on stuff you bring up.

Nikhil said...

if there's a connection between murderous Pakistani scum and Afridi's team, the same logic gives us a connection between murderous Indian scum and Dhoni's team.

Good try again Dilip, but again sorry you failed this one again. The connection would have been valid if Dhoni, Tendulkar, Bhajji or somebody else had made Afridi like comments. but no - our team or for that matter most of the elite public figures - Business, sports, actors etc do not have such bigotry. Why Sachin recently even braved the MNS, Shiv Sena thugs to make an inclusive statement about Mumbai being for all Indians.
So try some other comparion. This comparison fails

Nikhil said...

First answer Ranvir's distinction between Gambhir's dedication and Afridi's bigotry.

1. "Allah gave us muslims larger (and better) hearts than them (Indians but Hindus primarily).

Urvashi - This is the key issue and this is something that Dilip will never answer. Wonder why all of you went on a different track completely.

Dilip D'Souza said...

Yes, but you did say SRT dedicated his century to victims of 26/11, and linked to an article that made no mention of that, right?

Gambhir was asked, will beating Pakistan "soothe the pain" of the 26/11 victims. He said, very clearly and with none of the ambiguity you seek to cloak him in (credit to him for that): "I am sure the win against Pakistan would have helped."

That's it. You can pick up other stuff he also said in the interview, fine. But this one bit that I am reacting to said nothing about SL, the final, etc.

None of you have yet answered the point this post is making: if there's a connection between murderous Pakistani scum and Afridi's team, the same logic gives us a connection between murderous Indian scum and Dhoni's team.

Not even this suggestion you made works: "The connection would have been valid if Dhoni, Tendulkar, Bhajji or somebody else had made Afridi like comments."

Why not? Because Gambhir made the connection before Afridi's comments.

So make an attempt to answer just this point. Try not to obfuscate the issue. If you have no answer, that's fine with me. Just don't seek to obfuscate.

Dilip D'Souza said...

One last time, to emphasize: Gambhir's comments were made before Afridi's. Therefore those here riled by my mention of Gambhir need to offer an explanation of his comments.

Do that, clearly and unambiguously if you don't mind.

Nikhil said...

No more from me on this

Dear dear what happened? Anyway I think we have a good start. But word twisting apart, please answer this
Is dedicating a win to victims the same as spewing venom on another commnity.
Ok no problem if Pathan or Zaheer had said that their being honored with an award and being part of the world cup win could soothe muslims who have died in the Gujarat riots. we can opine on this. but in no way would this be considered a bigoted comment. This would be similar to Gambhir's statement. Now see the difference

Dilip D'Souza said...

What happened? No more from me on that business of a "pending" match from that particular commenter, that's all. I'm glad to engage in discussion about other things.

Is that some kind of bait you're offering, about Zaheer and Pathan? If they ever said that I'd find it crazy too. Are you suggesting that their being in the WC team is some kind of justice to the victims of a massacre? How perverse is that?

Why not try to answer this and nothing else: if there's a connection between murderous Pakistani scum and Afridi's team, the same logic gives us a connection between murderous Indian scum and Dhoni's team.

That's all. Answer just that. Give it a shot.

Chandru K said...

"if there's a connection between murderous Pakistani scum and Afridi's team, the same logic gives us a connection between murderous Indian scum and Dhoni's team."

Yes, there is. Pakistan sees cricket as a jihad against infidels; Indians see it as a sport, a game. So no, the Indian cricket team cannot be linked to murderous scum. Pakistan's team can be, because their ideology and philosophy is pretty much similar to those terrorists.

Anonymous said...

"Allah gave us muslims larger (and better) hearts than them (Indians but Hindus primarily)".

Did Afridi really say all that? I can answer this quite easily. Larger hearts=more generous=more forgiving=more inclusive.

If we MUST attack Afridi's praise of himself and his own, let us do so by showing our "larger hearts", include him as our neighbouring sportsman and move on.

For those of us who cannot move on, of course what he says must be true and you are small-hearted and petty - in that case let us admit it, he is right and you must strive to achieve more generous hearts.

Chandru K (the real one?) and Nikhil? Yes, these generous hearts will also include Gambhir's comments.

Chandru K said...

From another forum, excellent, and a pretty strong answer to D'Souza's questions and hang ups:

"Afridi reflects the mindset of Pakistan. Unfortunately for them, most of them are as ignorant and stupid as he is. The very few who may be smarter than him, are brow beaten and cowering for their lives.

So, don't tell me he does not reflect Pakistan. He is an ambassador of Pakistan as he claims and for all the wrong reasons when he opens that stupid hole he calls a mouth. The same intolerance, hatred and prejudice permeate much of the Pakistani nation which has embraced him. So, on and off the field, he is Pakistan. It is just impossible for him and the Pakistani nation to digest, that a group of people, who profess a different faith sometimes, could ever win the coveted trophy.

Their mind will always be too pitiably small to realize it has got nothing to do with religion, but everything to do with the effort and abilities. It is hard for me to say this, but they really deserved the defeat from the so called ‘kafirs’. I only hope it fixes them for good and they end up doing and behaving better."

Saby said...

@ Dilip,

Ref>> What do you think it will take for us to "let go" the massacres of thousands of Indians in 1984, 1992-93, 2002? >>

Nothing short of bringing the guilty leaders to book and delivering justice to victims.

There's no other way.

My comment was mostly related to Gambhir's way of interpreting closure and your analogy.

But I think getting the justice for the victims is truly a long shot and almost a lost cause. Please, don't interpret this as a comment from chauvnistic/deranged individual.

Process of delivering justice in riot cases is ham handed at best, as it is very complex. Even western countries with superior justice systems find it difficult to deal with. What can be done though, is book the leaders who goad others to do the job. But getting them will take a miracle, as our justice system is a joke.

I have said the same thing in reply to Tom's comment in your Baiga post.By the time courts deliver any verdict, especially in cases like this, an entire generation changes hands.

I wonder why?. I mean, is the justice infrastructure inadequate (which i'm sure it is) or is there too much government influence on courts (isn't judiciary independent as per the constitution) or simply that our laws have no teeth.??

Clara said...

It is really amazing to see how people manage to get over bad and even dramatic situations from their lives. Human beings are maybe the strongest beings in the World. They can endure pain, of any kind, and even smile after all.

Anonymous said...

Reference<>

What's wrong in believing that a win in a game would soothe a nation's wounds? A country that has heard a lot of bad news, would definitely savour a win in the sports. It is your narrow-mindedness that you want to link it to only Pakistan. He could have said that a win against SriLanka would soothe the wounds of 26/11, and it would be absolutely ok. In that case, it would be considered that the winning has brought good news and a respite.

But the moment other team is Pakistan and the win is dedicated to the 26/11, you have a problem.

Dilip D'Souza said...

It is your narrow-mindedness that you want to link it to only Pakistan.

Very interesting.

Gambhir said "the win against Pakistan would have helped" soothe the pain of "the people who lost their lives in the 26/11 massacre".

i.e. Gambhir made the link between beating Pakistan and the 26/11 massacre.

Gambhir, not me.

Somehow in your mind that gets twisted into me "linking it to only Pakistan."

As I said, very interesting. Fascinating, even.

Aparna said...

I was pointed to your blog by a friend.
Frankly, I think its about time we (I mean India, Pakistan and the rest of the world)grew up, got a bit mature and start seeing this from a different perspective.
Cricket is a game and what happens during the matches should be restricted to cricket discussed from that point of view. Period!

Chandru K said...

Oh my, what an horrendous error, I used the word 'pending'. Excuse me, I'm not even a cricket fan, and wasn't following the sequence of Gambhir's remarks.

But anyone can see that dedicating a match/win( pending or otherwise) to *victims* of a terrorist attack, is qualitatively different from linking a cricket result to the honour of a religion. In his desire to equate India with Pakistan, D'Souza seems to be the exception to common sense.

Chandru K said...

"Team India! You made us all Team India-- whatever be our religion, our language, our age. Team India did not have just 11 players. It had over a billion.
B. Raman "

This is an article from Outlook. Can you see something like this in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, or under the Taliban? You have to really reach, instead, to equate Gambhir with Afridi.

Dilip D'Souza said...

B Raman -- Oh, you mean the same Mr Raman who wrote that Aamir Khan had been selected to carry the Beijing Olympics torch because Khan is a "widely-respected Muslim personality"?

(My reaction to that effort).

Dilip D'Souza said...

And I nearly forgot ...

most of them are as ignorant and stupid as he [Afridi] is.

A guy describes 170m people as "ignorant and stupid" and still expects to be taken seriously.

Dilip D'Souza said...

And I also nearly forgot ...

... when he opens that stupid hole he calls a mouth. The same intolerance, hatred and prejudice...

A guy who refers to "that stupid hole he calls a mouth", who also calls 170m people "ignorant and stupid", then points fingers at "intolerance, hatred and prejudice" in others?

That's rich indeed.

Chandru K said...

Pakistan is an ignorant and stupid country and concept, a tiny few people who openly believe in pluralism and secularism cowering for their lives, or whispering in tea houses in Karachi make no difference whatsoever.

Chandru K said...

"B Raman -- Oh, you mean the same Mr Raman "

Yes, the one and only. He's allowed to write the odd controversial or inconsistent, or non-masterpiece or puzzling article. This particular article, where he referred to Indians regardless of religion and language, was indeed a good one. Let's appreciate it for what it is, and also acknowledge in Islamic countries like Pakistan, Saudi, Iran and Afghanistan, such sentiments would never be expressed *at all*.

Suresh said...

Dilip, Dilip, you are a sucker for punishment, aren't you, trying to engage with Mr. Chandru? This is a pointless exercise.

Having said that, I should note that the two quotes that you respond to are most likely not the words of Mr. Chandru. He is quoting someone else, one who posted on "another forum, excellent." You can check for yourself by looking at his comment @6:30pm, April 06, 2011. There can be no doubt, though, that Mr. Chandru agrees with the sentiments expressed in the quotes as he amply demonstrates in his response to your comment.

I am not going to respond to Mr. Chandru. I will say one thing, though. Some Indians seem to have the idea that Pakistanis have nothing to do other than to plan the destruction of India. It is worth noting that we (India) are not that important a country. And Pakistanis have many other things to do...some here might be interested in this newsreport; in particular, note what the novelist Mohammed Hanif has to say. I am sure there will be infuriated follow-ups; brace yourself.

Chitra Raghavan said...

Ive been thinking about this question and the comments here and I think its a fair question Mr DSouza asks. I will just cut and paste - "if there's a connection between murderous Pakistani scum and Afridi's team, the same logic gives us a connection between murderous Indian scum and Dhoni's team."

What is wrong with this statement?

Mr Chandru, you should try to answer it fair and square.

Chandru K said...

"if there's a connection between murderous Pakistani scum and Afridi's team, the same logic gives us a connection between murderous Indian scum and Dhoni's team."

Certainly, but first *prove* equivalence. Afridi does represent Pakistan in its fanaticism and idiocy. Gambhir does to a large extent represent India in his relatively humane, or at least understandable, response to that fanaticism and idiocy.

Chandru K said...

"It is worth noting that we (India) are not that important a country. And Pakistanis have many other things to do.."

Like what, for example? Plan moon launches, win spelling, math and geography bees, be a leader in software and BPO, export auto parts and whole cars, delve significantly into biotechnology, and so many other areas? Besides presiding over the most populous, diverse, pluralistic, secular, democratic state?
More like fund, train and brainwash terrorists, harp non stop on Kashmir, support the Taliban in Afghanistan and attacks on Indians there, allow China into Pak occupied Kashmir, do nothing about the Lashkar-E-Toiba, persecute and kill people who believe in secularism and pluralism, beg China and the US for money and arms, proliferate nuclear material to other roguish countries, have a chief of army staff who openly calls himself India-centric and so on. Besides denying the Indic heritage of that part of the subcontinent.

Nikhil said...

Some Indians seem to have the idea that Pakistanis have nothing to do other than to plan the destruction of India. It is worth noting that we (India) are not that important a country. And Pakistanis have many other things to do

Suresh.
Sure Agree fully with you. Pakistan will be the worlds largest economy in a decade. They will have more multinationals than India has. Their BPO/Software companies will beat Infosys, Wipro and TCS in less than 5 years. Who knows these companies will shift base to Pakistan. They will set up a league that will bankrupt the IPL.
All our established actors and actresses will make a beeline to act and do item numbers in their movie industry.
Ok Dilip - now we understand why we should make unconditional peace with Pak. I was completely ignorant of all this. You are a true visionary who foressees a great future for India to make peace with a great neighbor.

Anonymous said...

"win spelling, math and geography bees"

I'd like to know, pls, when has India won these bees? Chandru-saab, pls clarify.

Nikhil said...

This comment has been deleted - but key portion here is:

Second, from the link you provided, Gambhir also spoke about winning the world cup final – which was against Sri Lanka and not against Pakistan and here is te crucial difference.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/specials/cricket/world-cup-2011/I-play-for-India-I-play-for-people-of-my-country/iccworldcup2011-topstories/SP-Article10-680346.aspx

Now nobody from Sri Lanka took offence to this.
But Afridi did so and even brought to question who was responsible for 26/11. So label what Urvashi and others said as lies, but quietly gloss over this one.
But key point, once again, spewing venom against a particular community is ok for you and equivalent to somebody showing empathy. This is when your own bigotry is exposed.

Dilip D'Souza said...

This comment has been deleted...

Which comment? You mean you deleted it? I have not deleted a single comment that's appeared on this page.

As for the comment by Gambhir. Yet again: On the page you linked to, Gambhir says, unequivocally, "I am sure the win against Pakistan would have helped" soothe the pain of the victims of 26/11.

That's the crux of it. Which raises the implication that you are studiously avoiding an attempt to address: "if there's a connection between murderous Pakistani scum and Afridi's team, the same logic gives us a connection between murderous Indian scum and Dhoni's team."

It's that simple. Try to address that.

Jai_C said...

Much ado in a cardio cup.

I just got into this topic you guys are talking abt. Read up a bit on Indiatoday and IE sites.

With all the large and clean hearts docs in the cardio line must be underemployed in Pak :-) and all the to-do on these threads must be helping business at least in India. Lets get a few medicos from Pak when the need arises.

thanks,
Jai

Anonymous said...

Gambhir's statement is wrong, but not for reasons that our blogger suggests. The pain of 26/11 will not be soothed unless the massacre's ISI and LeT sponsors/perpetrators are caught and punished. Since they are instruments of the Pakistani state, going to war with Pakistan is one of India's legitimate options. Gambhir, like all naive, easily pleased Indians, is suggesting that a mere cricket victory is a substitute for a victory in war. He is also being a little pompous in suggesting that he and his mates are helping serve justice to victims of 26/11. Bottomline though, is that there is no comparison between Afridi's bigotry and Gambhir's his well-intentioned naivete.

Chandru K said...

From another forum, much more representative of present Indian sentiments, than either Gambhir or D'Souza:

"The way to crush Pakistaniyat is to unrelentingly outshine them and defeat them in everything till they are reduced to the shit level that they actually are, rather than the exalted position and reputation they got by financial, diplomatic and media support from the West for being a a willing and cheap Islamic prostitute, willing to hire out their Islamic eagerness to anyone for a few crumbs to use to kill Indians.

Nothing, but nothing should be given to them for free - except a chance to commit suicide, or otherwise die."

Jai_C said...

I apologize for intruding in the discussion of Very Important Pronouncements from Very Important Cricketers, and admittedly this is off-topic also.

But I just found from Beena's blog this appeal to release a Pakistani prisoner in Ajmer Jail, Dr.Khaleel Chishti (case proceeding since 1992). I hope it is okay to post this here:

http://beenasarwar.wordpress.com/2011/04/11/appeal-to-indian-president-for-release-of-aged-pakistani-prisoner

Thanks Dilip.

thanks,
Jai

Nikhil said...

I have already answered the question that you accuse me of avoiding. Gambhir speaks of winnning both the matches. When the interviewer specifies Paakistan, he says yes. Why then didnt the Sri Lankans get upset. They did not have anything to do with 26/11. So soothing hurt is not the same thing as
if there's a connection between murderous Pakistani scum and Afridi's team, the same logic gives us a connection between murderous Indian scum and Dhoni's team."
Apprently you have selectively picked upa statement and quoted the entire thing out of context. Not surprising as we have seen your earlier track record.

Dilip D'Souza said...

Gambhir says: "A win against Pakistan and a win in the final ... should be dedicated to those victims."

The interviewer asks him: "Do you think that will soothe their pain?"

Gambhir replies: "I am sure the win against Pakistan would have helped."

He could not have been clearer in making the connection between the 26/11 victims and beating Pakistan at cricket. Or more forthright.

The lengths people will go to to wave this away, to pretend his clear statement about Pakistan is actually one about both Pakistan and SL, speaks for itself. It shows that these people themselves know they cannot defend Gambhir's statement, so they seek to obfuscate his clarity.

Also, it speaks of an overriding hatred for Pakistan.

Nikhil said...

The lengths people will go to to wave this away, to pretend his clear statement about Pakistan is actually one about both Pakistan and SL, speaks for itself. It shows that these people themselves know they cannot defend Gambhir's statement, so they seek to obfuscate his clarity.

Also, it speaks of an overriding hatred for Pakistan.

What about the lengths to which people will go to prove equivalence between India and Pakistan. So when you draw this equivalence, you more or less agree with Afridi. Shows your hatred for Hindus and India. But dont worry - you have scored brownie points among the Wagah candlelight vigilwalas.

Chandru K said...

"..overriding hatred for Pakistan"

What could the possible reason(s) be for this sentiment? Because Pakistan is a democratic, secular, pluralistic, rational, progressive country? That it has no history of aggression or hostility to India? That it never harps on Kashmir based on the idea of religious commonality? That it believes, and openly, that Hinduism is as legitimate a path to salvation as Islam? That atheism and agnosticism exist openly in that country?
If Indians still dislike Pakistan even though Pakistan possesses all these wonderful features, yes, Indians are in the wrong, and D'Souza and his ilk are absolutely correct to point that out.

Nikhil said...

On a last note, I defend Gambhirs statement. He never even hinted at what you have written:

What is the connection between the murderous scum who came ashore to kill Indians in November 2008 and Afridi's team?
Gambhir has never hinted at that. Only you did. But anyway there is some connection though. The money that Pak makes indirectly goes into funding jihadis who create havoc in India via sustaining the ISI.
Anyway you pretend that ISI never exists even though so many people have mentioned its role.
Dont worry - you have managed to score brownie points. So more people to people contacts, email exchanges and bha bhai.