I've just heard that it will be broadcast tonight (Tuesday Nov 8) 10pm on NDTV 24x7. Please watch. Thoughts welcome.
My laziness has prompted a commenter to dig up and post, in his comment, the link to the show on the NDTV site.
When you have an hour to spare, here's the page: The Keenan-Reuben murders: We The Indifferent?
42 comments:
Missed that my friend. Please post a link. This was truly horrific. As long as you do not link this to 1984, 1992, 2002 Hindutva, Thackeray etc would be glad to take a look.
Shocking.
Yes, same here. Am also awaiting D'Souza's and others' comments on the recent news that Pakistani textbooks teach hatred of Hindus.
CK: "same here" meaning what? You agree to my "shocking"? I dont understand.
Your surprised by the Pakistani textbooks and hatred? why? You preach hatred of Pakistn and Muslims in nearly everything you say!! you and those textbook-writers are mirror-images. May you be happy together.
hi Dilip,
The murders were horrifying and tragic.
I caught this show (well the 2nd half) quite by chance. You were good and the participants mostly made very good points.
I dont quite agree with the "lets roll" point you made twice or more though. the pax on U93 knew they were headed for certain death, friends or family had told them abt the earlier crashes. Its not surprising they tried to roll.
Its not analogous to the bystanders situation. As somebody in the audience pointed out to you, each of them individually must have thought their intervention wouldnt make a difference. With lethal weapons being used and ppl actually being stabbed and killed right in front of them, I understand that they did not take the risk.
thanks
Jai
I dont know about "equal-equal", CK. Not interested actually. Im just saying, you drip hatred in every comment you make. You should be very happy and proud with others who do the same like you.
Also why that "Same here"??
Jai,
The point about U93 and "let's roll" was just that I can't help thinking that perhaps all it needed, there in Andheri, was one person to shout forcefully. Then others might have joined in, perhaps moved in and broken up the assault simply by virtue of being so many. They didn't need to get into the right and wrong of the fight, they could have just stopped it.
I could be wrong, but my feeling is it could have happened that way.
I didn't have the privilege to watch your interview, will you be youtubing it?
On a related note - these murders are more important than many many other murders in Mumbai - because?
The let's roll mentality really doesn't apply in this circumstance. On U93 people were bonded by a common cause - the plane and the certainty of their own fate.
Most people don't want to get knifed. Or make court appearances for years. They have a greater responsibility to their own families first. They are not good samaritans since they are not bonded by any common cause.
"Also why that "Same here"??"
I was responding to Nikhil's message, but yours obviously popped up before mine. Again, I eagerly await D'Souza's comments on the US report regarding Pakistani textbooks preaching hatred toward Hindus( and others, but primarily Hindus). That may be optimistic to expect such comments, but if it occurs, we can expect 'balancing' remarks on the lines of "While Pakistani official textbooks preach hatred against Hindus, Shiv Sena pamphlets produced during the Mumbai riots of 1992-93 question the nationality of Moslems in Mumbai".
Equal-equal, after all.
My Canadian Curmudgeon CK (CCCK)! You never fail to disappoint.
People like you feed the cause of those Pakistani hate authors.
HERE IT IS
"People like you feed the cause of those Pakistani hate authors."
Hatred for India and Hindus is hard-wired into the system in Pakistan. It has almost nothing to do with what Indians say or do. And actually nothing with what is posted on blogs like this one!
"Hatred for India and Hindus is hard-wired into the system in Pakistan."
Just like it is hard-wired into you, CK my chummy friend. Do you ever realize that everything you say about Muslims and Pakistan applies to you in double measure??
All right. I'm not letting through any more comments here that don't have to do with the subject of this post.
The discussion on "We the people" was quite spirited and heartfelt, but after watching it, you are left with the impression that this eve teasing( or whatever you want to call it) goes on every minute of every day in every city, town and village in India. Even without someone setting foot in India- and I've been to India several times- common sense alone tells you that is simply not the case. It's likely that there are sections of New Delhi where it is quite frequent, but even in this main culprit Delhi, it's not an epidemic. The media, sorry to say, hypes, magnifies and sensationalises many issues, including this one.
Re: "All right.I am not letting.." Good idea Dilip. Now another case that was shocking in a similar way was the murder of Geeta Chopra and her brother. It did not have the bystander component but the horror, fear, outrage and the youth of the victims was the similar. Would you ( or Barkha) care to comment how you see the lasting impact of that crime, if any, to prevent future such events? Or will we soon forget these two young men as well?
Dilip, Is this guy Chandru serious? A murder of two young men who fight off these sick bastards who molest women, and he says that is magnified & sensationalised? Does he have a clue? Has he even spoken to a single woman who lives in India, like me?
Get this into that brain of yuors, ok Chandru? I know not one single woman here who has not been touched, pawed, stared at, pushed, heard sick comments said about her, followed, etc etc etc. This is serious, ok? - not even one. Me included.
And I'll tell you that even with all that to bear every day, the worst thing about all this is that some men will say "this is all sensationalised." It is almost worse than the abuse.
Thanks Rashmi. I could not have said it better. CK is cluelessly vocal. The less he knows, the more he speaks about it. Thanks for educating him although he may be beyond hope.
I myself have not been a witness to it, which doesn't mean it doesn't go on. But I've been to India 4 times in the last 20 years, and all I noticed was groups of men gawking at women tourists. The more serious stuff is practically invisible. Again, it doesn't happen every minute of every day in every city, town and village. But that's the impression the programme in question gives. Well, India is a huge country with 1.2 billion people, at different levels of consciousness and development. Which doesn't make it right, of course.
CCCK: Like I said, you never fail to disappoint. "Again, it doesn't happen every minute of every day in every city, town and village." This is a vacant statement. "Every minute" is not even a proper measure for such things. You truly do stick to topics about which you are severely uninformed.
"I've been to India 4 times in the last 20 years"
Thats the ground on which you say that my experience as a woman in India is only sensationalising things? Four visits in 20 years?
I'm not devaluing anyone's experiences, including yours. But the programme in question gave a very negative impression of behavior in India, making it look like there's a creepy groper and stalker in every nook and cranny of every city. There was no balancing comments that suggested anything else. All doom and gloom.
CCCK: Yes. That's the India you are born from. Difficult to swallow and easy to deny. That is why you live in Toronto and go once every 5 to 10 years. Whitewashing won't help. No balancing comments to feed foolish foreign fancies.8t
I guess you and Barkha have no comments yet on the Chopra case from Delhi? I ask you then if nothing concrete is done following the murder of these boys are we not all bystanders? Indignant secondary bystanders.
Don't know about Barkha D, but I'll say this: the Sanjay/Geeta Chopra murders were a kind of awakening for plenty of us who were students at the time, whether in Delhi or elsewhere. We followed every detail of the case as it came out.
I made the silly mistake of assuming that most others would have thought of it the same way. silly because not long ago, I mentioned it in conversation with some younger people, and they had never heard of the murders.
So unfortunately, I think the answer is yes: eventually we forget even the most outrageous murders and "move on".
I think the only lasting impact of this latest tragedy would be if it gets each of us to think just a little bit more about the other guy, about our role in the society we live in, about our relationship with people around us. Perhaps if we did that, if we found a way to be less self-centred, we might not all choose to be bystanders when it matters. At least, I'd like to think that.
Good response Dilpi. Thanks.
These kind of murders install a fear in society and cripple the normal life.Criminal must be hanges w/o delay to restore order.
If you are back to blogging I would suggest addressing the topic of 26 soldiers killed by NATO. Where is the Pak/US relationship heading? What does Beena Sarwar think?
To Anon Nov 27 2011.
Dont worry. This news will not bother him. Look how he has completely ignored Nov 26. Now contrast with how without fail every year, he reminds us of 1984,1992 and 2002.
No prizes for guessing the reasons.
The indo pak 'peace at any cost' brigade is very happy with PM Manmohan Singh's latest initiative though some of Fai's funding has been reduced recently.
Nikhil pay attention. Take a break from your D'Souza-bashing. I asked him a serious question.
Actually I've needed this break from blogging - last one I took did me a power of good in many ways. I will get back to this space soon. That's a threat.
In the meantime of course there are the guys who interpret even a much-needed break from this as "completely ignored Nov 26". That I had something to remember Nov 26 last year matters not a jot to such guys.
My neighbour and Dhoni are "murderous scum" who "massacred innocents"? Got to marvel at what sewerage goes through the brains of some people.
Anonymous above: I don't know what Beena S thinks. Given the number of articles critical of Pak I've seen of late in influential US journals, I imagine their relationship is in a shambles, of course helped along by this killing of the soldiers. But somehow they seem to keep some kind of relationship going, in contrast to, for example, US/Cuba.
That said, I'm more interested in the future of India-Pak relations.
My neighbour and Dhoni are "murderous scum" who "massacred innocents"? Got to marvel at what sewerage goes through the brains of some people.
Oh my my .Dear Dilip. I quote straight from your own writing and you call it sewerage?
http://dcubed.dilipdsouza.com/2011/04/soothing-pain.html
How you drew the links from Gambhir's comment to how there was a link between murderous scum and Dhoni's team. Now those same people are (horror) paying homage to victims of 26/11?
Tsk Tsk. Maybe you should have exercised some restraint. Be a bit less enthusiastic in pleasing the Wagah candlelight brigade.
Regards US / Pak relations, I know it is a sad time for you guys that this relationship is on the rocks. Anyway you wanted this relationship to flourish and wanted the India - US relations to end.
By the way, I feel that the US - Pak relationship will continue as long as the US needs to maintain it for its own self interest or at least until they keep on getting suckered.
A few days ago, Mitt Romney put out an ad which had a clip of Obama saying "If we keep talking about the economy, we're going to lose."
Of course, what the ad clipped out of that clip was the full quote, which was: "Senator McCain's campaign actually said, and I quote, 'If we keep talking about the economy, we're going to lose.'"
That is, the line in question was actually McCain's.
One <a href="http://theweek.com/article/index/221718/mitt-romneys-obama-attack-ad-brazen-in-its-dishonesty>comment</a> about this calls the ad "brazen in its dishonesty."
That's a good phrase for this man who "quotes straight from" my writing is doing: brazen in his dishonesty.
Aha - When the liar is exposed, just spit and abuse. I have shown the complete passage where you wrote against Gambhir and completely quoted him out of context and even linked Dhoni and team to 'murderouse scum' . Now look at the way you are backtracking.
sorry buddy - cannot have it both ways.
That Gambhir post responded to his statement that "I am sure the win against Pakistan would have helped [soothe the pain of 26/11 victims]."
I asked: "What is the connection between the murderous scum who came ashore to kill Indians in November 2008 and Afridi's team? The scum and the team are all Pakistani, you say?"
Then I had these lines: "Then consider this: what is the connection between the murderous scum who killed 3000 Indians in Delhi in 1984 and Dhoni's team? Those scum and the team are all Indian, right? So how would you react if someone said that beating the Indian team will help 'soothe the pain' of the 3000 victims of the 1984 massacre? ... I know how I'd react: with revulsion and nausea. The absurdity of such a suggestion is matched only by the absurdity of Gambhir's suggestion about 26/11."
This is now twisted to say that I claimed that my neighbour and Dhoni were "part of the 'murderous scum' who massacred innocents?"
When this man has no arguments, like Romney seemed to have no arguments, he resorts to dishonesty, like Romney resorted to dishonesty. Got to marvel at the sewage that passes through the brains of some people.
This is the last irrelevant comment I will allow on this post.
Dilip as you maybe remember I almost never come to comment on your blog because I do not like your politics, as I have told you by email message.
But the last time I did it was on this posting - "Last Two Names", with url http://dcubed.blogspot.com/2009/11/last-two-names.html
I came on blog then because I wanted to say that "people like Chandru give us believers in Hindutva a bad name."
Now I am commenting again because I am forced to say the same thing about Nikhil. I have read your this posting about Gautam Gambhir. I liked what he said and not at all do I agree with your criticism of him. But in by no means have you equated Dhoni etc to what you call "murderous scum".
Shamelss of Nikhil to accuse you that you did! (I think You should exercise your blog owner privilege and delete such comment). It is this kind of ppl who give to Hindutva the bad name. There is no reason to lie to be critical of your article.
Thank you Chinmaya. I indeed remember both your comment and our email exchange.
My mistake for allowing irrelevant comments here. There will be no more.
There is no police to protect common people in India. I am surprised the police is not even investigating this crime and finding the people who are responsible for this. Police in India must give a gurantee that criminals CANNOT escape but unfortunately criminals are confident police are more coward.
untill then if we want to dare 20 men carry a very good fire arm else just slip.... if these guys would have had fire arms they would be alive today.
Every one want to live including the criminals.
Chandru K: (aka CCCK) do read this article for your continued education. Doesn't happen in Canada you say? Think again.
Huh? I was remarking on the negativism and gloom and doom in the Indian TV programme about the Mumbai murders. I made no contrast with Canada or the US. I'm capable of seeing India's good points, and not praising unabashedly Canada( or the US). One thing that I will say is absolutely superior here in Canada is the orderly and generally civilised traffic. Unlike India and third world countries.
CCCK: Not to get off-topic regarding traffic in Canada and so on.
The point is that there is a signficant amount of violence against women. The gloom and doom is part of the media circus in civilised countries such as your southern neighbour. Canada may be somewhat muted, being to this day loyal subjects of Queen Elizabeth.
However I am glad you read the article I posted specifically for your enrichment and of course for this blog.
What of the blogging blogger bold? Brother the pause is long and cold.
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