December 30, 2005

Connection to the shooting

My article for rediff.com, on the IISc attack, here. Comments welcome.

47 comments:

BangaloreGuy said...

I did also wonder what the heck was Abu Salem doing in the midst of all this.

Offhand, it does seem as though he might want you to make a connection. But IMO he's stating that there's no connection, as well as giving a brief on why/how Abu Salem is there.

Dont quite see why you need to get worked up.

Madhav said...

Well said. Need more writers like you around, Dilip. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

Hi Desouza,
Looks like there is a competition between the terrorist experts and the southAsia experts, the latter flush with christist money.

I think a real terrorist expert like the LET should have mentioned the RSS, bjp and such stuff, as the pakisthanis and their friends in India do regularly.

many indeed feel uncomfortable at the mention of Dawood, Salem - when the real problem is elsewhere. Hope your new book would describe the real problems.

BTW what are you with rediff even after madame Gandhi in power ?



All exactly right, of course. (Well, I have some quibbles, but they are not germane here). You are meant to read this and think to yourself that all this -- Salem, Dawood, the blasts of 1993, etc -- is connected to the outrage at IISc.

Subhan said...

Hi,

I was not able to post my comment on the rediff discussion board, and hence putting here.

I share the same thoughts that you have highlighted in your article, upon reading Mr. Raman's analysis on Banglore Shoot out.

Looks like this has become fashionable in every such incident or maybe an easy fix for authorities to put blame on Terrorism to hide their incompetencies in providing a secure environment.

What shiffting of Salem to Banglore had to do with every shoot-out in the city? And when people would be a little responsible in providing their analysis.

I am also from an Industry where I have to do lots of Analysis. But its business and I am sure my client's won't appreciate me providing Assumptions instead of Analysis based on facts.

Its about time for Analysts in News/Media to realize their credibility is surely on stake and have some policy/guidelines for controlling their output.

Medha Purandare said...

On reading rediff news, where I could not share thoughts,wished to put my note here. Why to blame Raman,only as he wrote? (I havent read his article I think,still...) many others might think connection of coincidences, it's human to find connections though facts might be different from reality. After attempt at Delhi now tech.City, that's what I think as a common (Of course proud be be) Indian.

Anonymous said...

Read the article on rediff. I kind of agree with you. There did not seem any connection with Abu Salem prima facie, but still articles like the one written by Raman are trying to make a connection. They are nothing but psyops. But then how many indians would understand the same as a psyops.

Pankaj said...

Dilip,

I feel that by reacting to every word uttered or piece written by such "experts" we give them unnecessary importance. In this particular case it is quite obvious that the "expert" is trying to make 2 and 2 add up to 22. Most people would be smart enough to figure that out and draw their own conclusions about the "expert's" "expertise" and motives. If the expert has an agenda of affecting people's views, I guess he has a right to try his hand at it.

That having been said, the alacrity with which the "expert" analysis pops up, betrays the fact that the expert has a pet explanation which is quickly customised to fit the circumstances of the latest outrage, and then regurgigated on the web, in print and on TV channels (yes, Mr Raman was on TV last night giving his views). As we know however, falling in love with a theory has the potential to first blinker our vision, then blind us, and finally, to expose us.

Cheers

Pankaj

Supremus said...

BRILLIANT!

Thats all I can say about your column on rediff - you echoed my thoughts so completely and so rightly.

I think Indian Media is headed the western way - analyists and experts are ready to air their views at the drop of a hat - they make inane connections all by themselves and hint at people seeing news to make those connections and create sensationalism - its a sad thing isnt it?

we need writers like you Dilip; please keep inking such.

Cheers!

Suyog

Munish said...

Obviously, Raman is trying to make a connection. As far as your own insertion of Call centre rape and murder in that article goes I want you to make this connection: Rape and murder at "Knife point". IISc shootings "AUTOMATIC weapon". Abu Salem and "MAFIA" when you think of these words what copmes to your mind? "AUTOMATIC WEAPONS". Thats why he tried to make a connection and your analogy is totally out of synch. Former head of counter intelligence is way more shrewd than most of the journalists. He did not point out the connection himself , As most of the journalists would have done. He left it to reader's imagination. Besides point of an analysis is to come up with "DIFFERENT scenarios". These scenarios may not be right. If you have problem understanding how intelligence community works may be you should try to read some books on intelligence gathering and analysis, because they do not offer Campus Trips to journalists.

Dilip D'Souza said...

Munish, Raman is trying to make a connection, right, which is just what I'm objecting to. He himself says there's no connection. Yet he does it.

I tend to agree (in hindsight!) with Pankaj: we give too much importance to these "experts".

cynical nerd said...

Dear Dilip,

I think Shri Raman compiled this article in a hurry. He only tries to list the various possibilities. However, the underworld connection cannot ruled out IMO. Generally, terrorist groups such as LeT are not yet well-installed in Southern India. Indeed had they, the attack would have been spectacular (line Akshardam, Diwali Delhi, Ayodhya). It is possible they would have engaged some underworld groups.

Also watch this video from a captured JeM operative. This guy was hosted in Clifton, a posh Karachi neighborhood where Dawood Ibrahim and many ISI/Pak military brass hang out.
http://www.ibnlive.com/article.php?id=3015§ion_id=3#

Regards,

Chinmay said...

Dilip,

You in the press are bunch of bigots and hypocrites. Whatever you have complained about Raman, SATP et al, you people do exactly the same. Now, you are trying to portray yourself as the holy than thou thingy. Shut up your ass and correct Rediff. Rediff has soooooooooooo many news reports, and reports by your field "experts" who write such biased and such absurd reports.

SHUT UP!!!

Dilip D'Souza said...

> SHUT UP!!!

Can't.

Munish said...

Dilip,

No where in the article did Raman say that there is no connection. Infact he did not say if there is a connection or not. Only thing that he mentioned was that there is "So Far" no evidence to connect the shooting incident with the shifting of Abu Salem. After that he presented a scenario which is possible.
Giving importance to someone's views is your prerogative. If you think whatever Raman said is irrelevant, thats fine. Only thing is that people sitting at right places (Read intelligence community) need to pay attention to such comments. Whether you or Pankaj find it relevant or or irrelevant doesn't matter much.

One more thing, Raman IMO does not qualify in "THESE EXPERTS" category. This is what Rediff has to say for him:
Well-known counter-terrorism expert B Raman was additional secretary in the Research and Analysis Wing, India's external espionage agency. Now director of the Institute for Topical Studies in Chennai, he is a leading commentator on India's security concerns.

Dissent said...

B Raman is doing the responsible thing and analyzing possible motives for the crime. All the connections are in Dilip's head. Dilip's column is a tribute to the logical genius of his fan club.

Udayan Deshpande said...

I agree that gratuitous addition of text to suggest links between events that show no evidence of being related is unsavory. Almost malicious.

Another example is the almost mandatory sentence that you can see in western terrorism reports - "India accuses Pakistan of funding, training and arming the guerrillas who have fought the 13-year insurgency in which more than 61,000 people have died. Pakistan says it supports the militants' cause, but gives them no material aid."

Although this example not very offensive, it is a reflection of laziness on the part of reporters. I must have seen that line at least 50 times in various news websites (CNN, BBC, Guardian etc.)

Moving on, if SATP collects number of casualties from the media and summarizes them in tables, I see no harm in quoting those summaries. As long as SATP does not further add these summaries to their results (resulting in a infinite divergence - that would be silly) I think its fine. However I agree that SATP would be well advised to maintain a list of media sources or references.

Dissent said...

Let us examine Dilip's logical fallacies a bit further.

B Raman wrote his article within 24 hours of the incident. Dilip responded to B Raman's column within what, 5 minutes? Of the actual incident and B Raman's article which do you think Dilip is concerned more about? (Hint: not the shooting)

Secondly, I understand that Dilip and his fan club are concerned about the slow pace of justice in India. But Dilip objects to the very fact that people have started analyzing the crime within 24 hours. Either you ask for quick justice or you get out of the way of the judicial process. Don't be a obstacle in the path of justice.

Anonymous said...

Subhan,

Don't know which business you are in, but in any business analysis, the first step is to list your assumptions and the last step is to come up with recommendations. Raman has just talked about the first steps. Dilip (and you) are confusing it with recommendations.

Dilip,

It is important for any analyst to project all angles in an initial analysis. This is what Raman has done as well. It is especially important in intelligence community to NOT discount any angle. Automatic weapons/bombs-Mafia-Terrorist connection is not new to India. If authorities/people miss this angle, that could prove much more disastrous for our people later- something that everyone would want to avoid. So there is nothing wrong in drawing attention to this angle.

On the other hand why are you rushing to push people to discount/discredit this angle Dilip?

Krishnan Sundararaman said...

Dilip,
imo, junta is unwilling, as yet, to walk down to a paddy field, pull out the rice grains,eat it & wash it down with a glass of water.

It wants somebody to harvest the paddy, put the rice grains in sacks, take them down to ration shop, buy one kg basmati rice after watching their favorite screen idol advertise the same on tv, then take that basmati rice home & boil it in prestige pressure cooker and serve it on a thali and then mix that cooked rice with buttermilk or curd or rassam or whatnot & only then will it eat that same paddy.

If you want pure objectivity...bloke X gunned down another bloke Y on a campus conference. You can't sell that 1-line copy. So you add salt & pepper & boil it in prestige cooker & serve it on thali & junta will dutifully lap it up.

If you want to indict the so-called expert, you should first indict junta for being so unwilling to consume straighforward bland objective news. Granted there are those of us who prefer a no-nonsense version, but its so few...you can't monetize newspapers with that little audience. I share your concerns but can't see an alternative. People want fiction. They will gladly buy a $150 wineglass if you tell them it makes the wine taste better than the $1 glass. They know and you know that glass cannot alter taste, but yet...

Anonymous said...

Krishnan,

You are confusing News with News Analysis. News is "Bloke X shot Bloke Y" alright. This is just the raw material- like the rice and lentil you mention. News analysis is to take the news and view it with different perspectives. In other words, cooking the rice and lentil and coming up with rice and dal. Some make idli and sambar and some make rice and dal with the same ingredient and people consume it for what they want in their plate- in other words people see/ not see in News analyses what they want to see/ not see. Is you appetite whetted now?

Krishnan Sundararaman said...

Anon,
Once you start doing a meta, there's no end to it. Here in the US, we inhabit a meta-meta-metaphized zone.
eg. This month, Walmart started hawking greeting cards that said "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas". That itself is no news. But Gibson, Murdoch's footsoldier wrote a full book around this perceived insult of Christ. Then O'Reilly propped up Gibson and made corporate bashing a fulltime news segment on Fox, so New Yorker had to pull O'Reilly's pants off with fullpage article, then a bunch of MSM bloggers attacked New Yorker, then...by the time junta got to the greeting card aisle in Walmart, it had passed thru so many layers of meta, making your own greeting card seemed more attractive than plunking down 85 cents for "Happy Holidays" :)

All aition is ambiguous. But material aition is less ambiguous for us NHBs than formal/final aition. Dilip is arguing for a Aristotlean telos doctrine, Raman offers a more palatable Humean version.

Why did Puri die ? Final aition - Like all humans, blood supply to brain deprived for a few crucial moments, leading to shedding of mortal coils.

Try selling that to junta.

So you go with Hume ie. material aition - Puri died because bullet fired by terrorist, terrorist may have come from X/Y/Z, blah blah.

If you abandon final cause, rest is detail. Because all other aitiai are trivial.

Dissent said...

Krishnan,

Why are you trying to cover Dilip's ass? B Raman's columns is not the same as media sensationalising issues. The most prestigious academic institute in India has been attacked. Several professors have been shot and one has died. Responsible authorities are not sure who is behind the crime. B Raman's article should be seen as a part and parcel of the brainstorming process. Except for people who admire Dilip's columns, I do not underestimate the intelligence of the average reader.

Anonymous said...

Krishnan deserves to be locked up in a mental asylum for making comments like this:

"Why did Puri die ? Final aition - Like all humans, blood supply to brain deprived for a few crucial moments, leading to shedding of mortal coils."

Reminds me of the US National Rifle Assoc.(NRA) argument: "Guns dont kill people. People kill people."

Ravi said...

I think the more serious problem here is the lack of internal security in India ( in addition to the plethora of problems that we are facing). I've been to IISc a few times, and realistically speaking, which institution(s) in India are prepared to face attackers with AK-47's and hand grenades ?? I bet most police stations are sitting ducks for such organized attacks. One must only hope that there is no backlash against the minorities now !

Arun said...

B. Raman mentioned Abu Salem because his incarceration is a possible motive for the attack. Maybe the average reader of rediff.com is dumb, but where we discuss these things we had possible perpetrators among others - criminals, Lashkar-e-Taiba, Bangladeshi groups, LTTE, Naxalites/Maoists. B. Raman mentioning Abu Salem doesn't throw us for a loop.

Regarding SATP, I have seen monthly digests at SATP, giving the names and whatever other details are available from the press of those killed in J&K. Simply because their totals don't attribute the (myriads of) sources does not make their numbers suspect. For instance, see http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/india/states/jandk/data_sheets/majorincidents.htm. In any case, it is painful to publish all one's data on the web, at a minimum you should ask them if they have compilations offline that they can outline and possibly share with you.

Anonymous said...

Dear Mr. D'Souza,
What Mr. Raman wrote was an opinion, and he is paid/invited/welcomed by rediff to do just that; to use his expertise and experience to present a hypothesis and analysis; he may even be a consultant for law enforcement as they investigate the said crime. After all, he has put in all the right disclaimers that it is a hypothesis; op-ed writers often do much worse. And it is up to the reader to form his/her opinion. This happens all the time in a free press. Would you claim that your writings are never intended to shape opinions...?

But what I'm amused here is why you have an axe to grind with Mr. Raman, or his article that hypothesizes a connection between an atrocity of the past, recent events and intelligence reports and the Bangalore incident. Why did it bother you so much as to turn around with an opinion against that article in 24 hours? Even if it turns out to be inaccurate, Mr. Raman's article would, at the minimum, only reinforce public opinion against the enemies of the Indian state and its people and has no other negative implications to society or the law-abiding citizens; was that too bad in your opinion to warrant such a quick emotional riposte (it sure felt like one, compared to some of your other writings that are better structured)?

Which makes me wonder - what really drives writers/activists like you? A reader by the way needs to also think about the writer's mindset since what he/she is reading are the opinions shaped by the writer's ideology, agenda and outlook. Your writings often lean against the establishment, against the mainstream, focuses often on the ignored/un-noticed events and people. I understand that the democratic state can sometimes be a heartless entity as it pursues the agenda of the majority (or only the lobbies, if you are cynical), often trampling upon the powerless and the voiceless, and the latter does need a voice that can be heard; and I know that writers/activists like you have done a commendable job in trying to make that voice heard. I can appreciate the bleeding heart (and I use this phrase not in the pejorative as is sometimes used, but due to lack of a better phrase popping up in my mind). But when you stray to take up the cudgel against a counter-terrorism expert's hypothesis that has no negativity in it for the peaceful, law-abiding citizens, when your writings and speeches show a subtle softness around the corner in one of the matters that deeply concerns Indians such as terrorism (a mention of your quibbles regarding the notorious Mumbai blasts and its accused), when I hear you justifying Kargil as a response to Siachen in one of your speeches during your US book-promo tour (I still can't quite see an apples-to-apples comparison there), when in the same speech it gave me the impression that the plight of the refugees out of Kashmir was only an afterthought to you, when I hear you argue for a Kashmiri's qualms against Gavaskar captioning "Srinagar, India" rather than just "Srinagar" (it being a part of India understood) in his book (Idols) as one of the causes for his disenchantment with the Indian state (if that argument is followed, Malayalis would have taken up the AKs long ago for always seeing their state capital named Triv"e"ndrum, being called Madrasis, and in general being felt ignored by the India north of the Vindhyas.), I have to wonder what this writer's agenda is. Why do I sense a sarcasm when after you associated questionable numbers quoted by SATP and KPS Gill, you go on to describe him as "revered around the country for stamping out terrorism in Punjab"? If you aren't sneering at the Indians who are relieved at the end of a bloody, festering peiod, through means that you probably are unhappy about, what is it? Or when you focus on the nitty-gritty’s of the stated terrorism numbers in SATP web-sites, rather than the unquantifiable sufferings it has wrought? It makes me wonder...

It is probably sexier to be against the establishment and the mainstream, to believe that the state hardly ever means good; cynicism exudes lot more intellectualism than faith in the state; even naxalism against the state has its romanticism. I wonder if on the same given day, an act of militancy in an upscale place A and an act of Nature in a downscale place B caused identical catastrophes and casualties, where would you have rushed to...? Would you have criticized the state for not eliminating terrorism and providing security to the people, or would you have first criticized the state for not preparing for and dealing with Nature's fury, or would you have seen them both as tragedies of equal magnitude? My skepticism stems from the statistical trend of the opinions read over the years. It makes me wonder if the glamour of the activism in itself, being a David against the state's Goliath, has sometimes superseded the causes that need to be espoused. It makes me wonder if the activist has nightmares of a day dawning when there is no more causes to project oneself onto. Does the self-satisfaction of having done something good for the needy sometimes get ahead of the succor that is brought to them. It may be just me and my cynicism, but an uneasy sense of intellectual elitism pervades this. Some of the causes you espouse are just and the energy you pour into them are admirable. But when your focus on the causes that matter most to you fuzzies causes that matter to others, when it causes atrocities and injustice of different hues to be viewed through different prisms as you yourself often accuse, when it makes you justify some things that don't have justification, when your activism causes you to perpetually sneer at the state (which in a democracy is ours and all we have despite all its flaws) you lose the reader in me (if it ever matters to the writer in you).

Arun said...

We've heard what the media (Dcubed) thinks of B. Raman. Here's what B.Raman thinks of the media (and also provides some answer as to why B. Raman found Abu Salem significant w.r.t. Bangalore)

http://www.saag.org/%5Cpapers17%5Cpaper1618.html

Ever since Abu Salem and Monica Bedi were extradited from Lisbon to India to face trial reportedly in terrorism, extortion and other related criminal cases before  Indian courts, there is a mad frenzy among Indian journalists working for the print, electronic and online media to dig out as many juicy stories about them as they can in order to beat their professional competitors.

2. In a national daily, I counted on a single day 10 stories in different pages including the first. Were these about the implications of the extradition for India 's fight against terrorism and trans-national crime and the linkages between the two? Hardly.

3.The majority of the stories carried by this daily as well as by other sections of our national and regional media has filled up their columns with personal tit-bits about these suspects in important cases having a bearing on national security.

4.What Monica Bedi is reading in jail? Does she join the evening games in the jail or not? Does she smile or cheer others who do? What does she eat? What is the daily routine of Abu Salem like? Who are the heroes of this extradition?  What is their bio and so on.

5. In this mad race for the collection of the trivial and their dissemination, the really important issues relating to this extradition have received very little attention.

6.Whatever be his role in the Mumbai blasts of March,1993----the first well-orchestrated and well-timed serial blasts in the history of terrorism---- this terrorist strike was the precursor of the serial blasts carried out by the Al Ummah of Tamil Nadu at Coimbatore in February,1998. This technique was later emulated by Osama bin Laden's Al Qaeda and other pro-Al Qaeda jihadi terrorist organisations, based in Pakistan, in different parts of the world.

7.The Mumbai blasts were also the first instance in  which there was clear evidence of a linkage between the world of terrorists and that of trans-national crime mafias---a linkage about which the counter-terrorism experts of the world have been increasingly concerned. This concern is reflected in the increasing number of studies on the subject made by experts in different countries. It is also reflected in the fact that the Working Group on Terrorism of the Council on Security Co-operation Asia Pacific (CSCAP), of which I was a member, had devoted considerable time to sudying and discussing this linkage in its meetings of 2002. In one of those meetings, I made a detailed presentation on the evidence available regarding the linkage between the world of terrorists and the trans-national mafia gang of Dawood Ibrahim. The US decision of 2003 to designate Dawood Ibrahim as an international terrorist with suspected links with Al Qaeda was one of the important results of these studies.

8. It is to this milieu, sponsored and encouraged by Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), that Abu Salem allegedly belonged. Any evidence of his involvement in specific acts of terrorism such as the Mumbai blasts is important. Even more important is evidence of his place and role in this milieu. The Indian sub-continent is the only region of the world where there has been clear-cut evidence of the developing linkages among  the world of terrorists, that of trans-national mafia groups and of nuclear proliferators of Pakistan who have been using these groups.

9. The world will be watching keenly how we handle Abu Salem and Monica, whether our investigators, during their interrogation, are able to establish the disturbing linkages etc. In other countries, where the public and media attitude to counter-terrorism is more serious than in India, investigative journalists would have preoccupied themselves with finding answers to questions relating to such linkages. Our journalists are instead spending their time and efforts in trying to find out whether Monica eats vegetarian or non-vegetarian food, whether Abu Salem has any physical activity in jail or not? What a shame! If these are the kind of stories in which our public is interested, it is no wonder our fight against terrorism is leading us nowhere.

10.The extradition of Abu Salem and Monica Bedi from Portugal under the UN Convention for the Suppression of Terrorism is definitely a major achievement, but of what use this achievement if it does not lead to our eradicating the developing linkages between terrorists and trans-national crime mafias?

11. The unwarranted euphoria over the Abu Salem case should not blind us to our continuing failure to act similarly against Dawood Ibrahim, Tiger Memon and 18 other Sikh and jihadi terrorists operating against our nationals and interests from ISI-provided sanctuaries in Pakistan. What we have done so far either to force Pakistan to hand them over under the UN Convention or under the UN Security Council Resolution No.1373 or to hunt for them as the US, Israel, France and other countries do in respect of terrorists killing their nationals? Zilch---apart from issuing statements from time to time. Even these proforma statements are becoming milder and milder.  

12. Confidence-building is the name of the game---- the game of closing our eyes to the depredations of these mafia dons and terrorists from their sanctuaries in Pakistan. What efforts we put in and what money running into crores we spent to get Abu Salem and Monica from Portugal! Compare it with what we have done in respect of our absconding terrorists and dons operating from Pakistan. . 

13. Is it any wonder nobody takes us seriously? Not even the terrorists.

Saroj said...

Dilip

This comment is regarding your article on rediff:
http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/dec/30dilip.htm

I think that your criticism of B Raman's article is uncalled for.

He is suggesting a possibility that it might be linked to Abu Salem but he admits that it is not certain.

On the other hand, if someone were to link it to Rape of call centre employee then it would be also ok but it would lack credibility; as anyone would wonder about the target and its link to Rape.

Think for yourself.

Regards, Saroj

Dilip D'Souza said...

Wow, I wake up late and there are all these intriguing comments here!

Munish, you say: No where in the article did Raman say that there is no connection.

Really? Once again, Raman wrote: There is so far no evidence to connect the shooting incident with the shifting of Abu Salem.

I have no problem with him presenting "scenarios which are possible." That's his job.

Dissent, Raman's article is part of the "judicial process"? I think that characterization would astonish even Raman.

Anonymous 202AM: You're saying I thought those three paras about Abu Salem were Raman's "recommendations"?

I couldn't care less what angles Raman explores, though the more he does, the better. But when he himself says there's no connection between the shooting and one of those angles, I have to wonder: why did he write that? Which is why I mentioned the call-centre rape.

Ravi, you say: I think the more serious problem here is the lack of internal security in India ... realistically speaking, which institution(s) in India are prepared to face attackers with AK-47's and hand grenades?

On the button, if you ask me. How do we ensure that internal security? Are we going to ring IISc and every other institute with blanket security? How will that work?

Chinmay said...

Mr Dilip-who-cannot-shut-up:

Read this article by Sheela Bhatt: http://ia.rediff.com/news/2005/dec/28bjpspec.htm

In this article, everything is he said, she said. Nothing that really proves a point. It more shows that Sheela Bhatt and Rediff seems to be happy at what is happening.

True, as many "experts" are there, there are equally pseudo-experts in Rediff like you, Sheela Bhatt.

Oh BTW, should we take "expert" opinions in other issues like Aryan Invasion Theory etc. like ur bedfella Michael Witzel et al.

You know what the problem is, Raman writes periodically on SAAG which is a Nationalist website, which anti-nationals like you can never agree with. You are bed fellows of Sandeep Pandeys, Arundhati Roys, Javed Akhtar (who ridiculed Sri Sri Ravi Shankar at India Today Leadership Conf) and his wife Shabana Azmi and ofcourse the expert of experts - TEESTA SETALVAD.

Do you remember the logo of TEESTA SETALVAD's SABRANG COMMUNICATIONS!!!

U R A ANTI-NATIONAL!!!!

AND NOW, SHUT UP!!!

Anonymous said...

Arun ...regarding Raman's point..
>>What we have done so far either to force Pakistan to hand them over under the UN Convention or under the UN Security Council Resolution No.1373 or to hunt for them as the US, Israel, France and other countries do in respect of terrorists killing their nationals? Zilch---apart from issuing statements from time to time. Even these proforma statements are becoming milder and milder.

Tauba Tauba.. Dilip Sahab would faint at the suggestion of killing them poor misguided oppressed youth.

Dilip D'Souza said...

Arun: It's hardly that I'm saying the Salem incarceration is not a motive for the attack. I'm saying, Raman himself says there's no evidence to connect the two. Analyses base themselves on evidence.

Also, I have written to SATP pointing out the things I've mentioned in this piece, and have had no reply, nor any updating of their site as a result.

And you quote me a paper from SAAG? Really? Let me pick out just one sentence from it: The unwarranted euphoria over the Abu Salem case should not blind us to our continuing failure to act similarly against Dawood Ibrahim, Tiger Memon and 18 other Sikh and jihadi terrorists operating against our nationals and interests from ISI-provided sanctuaries in Pakistan.

The day Raman writes a sentence like this, I'll take this one seriously too: The unwarranted euphoria over the Abu Salem case should not blind us to our continuing failure to act similarly against Sajjan Kumar, Bhagat, Thackeray, and their colleagues operating against our nationals and interests from Government-protected sanctuaries in Bombay and Delhi.

Anonymous513am: Among other things, I never have been on a book-promo tour of the US. As for the rest of your doubts, you will have to keep nursing them.

Saroj, you say: ... anyone would wonder about the target and its link to Rape. Think for yourself..

Exactly. In the same way, I think for myself about the attack and its link to Abu Salem journeying to Bangalore. Especially because Raman himself says there's "no evidence to connect" the two.

Dilip D'Souza said...

Chinmay: I can't speak for Sheela Bhatt, but I did read that piece. You say "everything is he said, she said."

I did a search for the word "said" in the piece, and found it appears twice: in "A former minister said..." and "...said a BJP leader." Neither of the phrases "he said" nor "she said" appears.

I'm at a loss to know how two appearances of the word persuades you that "everything" about the piece is "he said, she said".

> AND NOW, SHUT UP!!!

Can't.

Saroj said...

Dilip, There might be some link between Attack and Abu Salem but it is hard to conceive of a link between Rape case and Attack.

Anyways, I think that you are trying to pick the examples where analysts are merely fooling around but this example does not sound convincing.

Another issue is that most of the analysts would try to come up with some scenarios/hypothesis and try to explain the event in that context. Most of the times, there is not enough proof to link things in terrorism world.

in this b'lore attack, police is yet to find some clues and at times, police's story is also questionable.

So, it does make sense to think of all possibilities which can lead to this attack and salem episode is one of these possibilities, although, chances are pretty low (at the moment)

Regards, Saroj

Anonymous said...

People are getting worked up over Dilips comments. You can take him seriously the day he writes about terrorists, christists, Maoists also ...

Anonymous said...

BR Raman's articles are just his personal opinion. Just as Dilip D'souza's articles are his personal opinion. We all know Mr Raman reflects the conservative side of politics and Mr D'souza tries (with stress on the word tries) to be on the left. So whenever I read either of their articles I chuck out 50% of the stuff as political propaganda, 15% as emotional crap, 20% baseless information, 10% imagination. The remaining 5% is what probably is the baseline truth in either case.
I remember how Mr D'souza "discovered" that poverty has increased in India by taking a few train rides. If that analaysis has wings so does Mr Raman's.

However I don't see what has riled up Mr D'souza so much about Mr Raman's analysis.

Now say for example if Mr Raman wrote an article saying that Hindu fascists were behind the "mass grave" recently dug up by Mrs Teesta Setlavad and co, I am sure Mr D'Souza would be running around the whole town quoting Mr Raman.
I doubt he would be questioning Mr Raman in such a case.

Am I right Mr Dilip ji?

Anonymous said...

It reminds me of another of Dilip's columns ridiculing the level of conversation at a dinner party (high society). But why was he there in such company in the first place ?

Anonymous said...

Mr. D'Souza: Among other things, I never have been on a book-promo tour of the US.

Anonymous513am: I don't know why else someone would put his books up on a table in the room where the speech is delivered. General enlightenment of the public...?

Mr. D'Souza: As for the rest of your doubts, you will have to keep nursing them.

Anonymous513am: A little touchy there, huh? Anyway, thank you for the unspoken clarification regarding your agenda.

Dissent said...

If I get this article right, DSouza is perturbed by the fact that Raman even mentioned Abu Salem in his article.

This DSouza chap seems to be extremely sensitive to the portrayal of muslim criminals as criminals.

Teesta S. said...

Dilip, I never ever comment on blogs. But I was compelled this time. Thousands like me have read your article and the comments from the readers. One of the comments - posted on December 31, 2005 5:13 AM says it all. YOU HAVE BEEN BADLY EXPOSED THIS TIME.

Arun said...

The following is from an American author, posting for its military school (I'll provide a URL after I finish reading the entire thing). The idea to be conveyed is that it is not the violence per se but the disruption of normal life that is the goal of the terrorist attacks.

Quote:

Be all this as it may, a point must be made as concerns the earlier discussion of the need to examine the insurgency in its parts: it is not the human cost alone that makes for the notoriety of the conflict. Indeed, the internal war in J&K,
when scaled, does not begin to approach the levels of criminal violence present in those US metropolitan areas best known for their murder rates. The ‘death count’ in Jammu & Kashmir for 2003 stood at 836 civilians, 1,447 militants, and 380 security personnel. If this violence is aggregated (2,663), which is unorthodox but certainly presents the worst possible statistical picture, it scales out at 24.5:100,000 population. This would place Jammu & Kashmir between Memphis (24.7:100,000) and Chicago (22.2:100,000), in the 2002 murder rankings when examining American cities with populations greater than 500,000, well off the pace established by the likes of Washington, DC (45.8:100,000) or Detroit (42.0:100,000).

Thus the issue, as concerns Indians, is not ‘body count’ alone but the totality of the dislocation. The perversion of daily life caused by the insurgency and the government’s response; the deployment to the state of substantial numbers of security forces; the inability of economic activity to respond to demographic shifts due to the all-encompassing and pervasive effect of the conflict; the looming danger of escalation to inter-state war, with the possibility that nuclear weapons will be used; these and other facets are what make the ‘Kashmir conflict’ so ominous for the population.

Arun said...

Dilip,

B. Raman's area of expertise is external threats to India, and that is what he writes about and has written extensively about. You say you want someone who knows what is going on to tell you about it, but when they do, you start whining - oh, let them tell me about internal threats to India as well, otherwise I won't take you seriously.

If you wanted a discussion of internal threats to India, that is a different one from what you wrote about on rediff and the current post on this blog. You are not interested in a serious discussion, you just want someone to stroke your prejudices. I think we all are making a mistake by taking you seriously. It is just one more of India's problems that a character like you gets some prominence. Never fear, we'll eventually grow out of that as well.

Munish said...

Dileep,
May be, I could not understand your line of reasoning :). I wont ask you to shut up cuz you can say whatever you like thats your opinion. I just think that you still do not understand what I mentioned or whatever Raman said. If we put our argument about logics aside I still believe Raman is a credible expert as I mentioned in my earlier comment and you cannot club him into "THESE EXPERTS" category. But if you still want you can continue doing so, I will shut up. Over and out as they say in movies. No more visits to dcubed cuz our logics are at different frequency. Good luck. I will still check your articles on rediff though, sometimes you are amusing :).

Anonymous said...

Dilip,

"no evidence to connect" does not mean "no connection" You keep saying Raman said no connection whereas he only said "no evidence"- That does not mean we can hastily discount the angle.

And to the question of securing India, well I agree there is lax security what with clowns like Dharam Singh saying "Sometimes these things happen" and with the west bengal leftist vote-bank vultures allowing all Bangladesh terrorists free passage lest they should lose the precious minority votes. Close the porous borders and eject the commies out of border states and internal security will magically improve.

Ravindra said...

Hi Dilip,

I usually try not to miss your articles - just to see how much power it has to make my blood boil. :)

And in this case, you seem to have outdone yourself.

If one were to go by your logic, then until one has complete evidence (and maybe even a judicial verdict), one must not try to think out various possibilities and links. So until the actual perpetrator of the crime is convicted (that alone will be the final proof, wont it?) then we must not even discuss all angles.

Then pray, how do you explain the "jumping to conclusions" in the case of the Staines murder where Bajrang Dal was immediately convicted by the hyper pseudo-secular media as also the Gujarat riots case where the BJP govt in power was blamed for inciting and fuelling the riots? Wasn't that a case of jumping the gun too?

Or probably that is acceptable since the targets are Hindu nationalist outfits!!!

But God forbid if someone even utters something against proven underworld dons (who happen to be Muslims) then we get all worked up, don't we?

Tell me honestly, if instead of Salem, someone had written an article blaming lets say, the VHP, would you have been so prompt and indignant in shooting off a rejoinder?

I can bet not!

Cheers,

K said...

Bingo!!! Anon 5:13 AM
You've hit nail on the head:

It makes me wonder if the glamour of the activism in itself, being a David against the state's Goliath, has sometimes superseded the causes that need to be espoused. It makes me wonder if the activist has nightmares of a day dawning when there is no more causes to project oneself onto. Does the self-satisfaction of having done something good for the needy sometimes get ahead of the succor that is brought to them. It may be just me and my cynicism, but an uneasy sense of intellectual elitism pervades this. Some of the causes you espouse are just and the energy you pour into them are admirable.

And this - hilarious:
Anonymous513am: I don't know why else someone would put his books up on a table in the room where the speech is delivered. General enlightenment of the public...?


ROTFL

k said...

BTW, any expert opinions from J B D'Souza? Why pick on some retired babu like Raman, pick one nitwit government babu someone closer home - you know the mumbai nero who fiddled during riots couple decades ago?