February 14, 2010

Pune

Jaipur. Delhi. Bombay. Malegaon. Bangalore. Guwahati. On and on. Some of those places, again and again. Going back 25 years and more.

And now Pune. Eight fellow citizens dead and probably counting. The same dismal counting we've done so many times.

Do we need to get used to the idea -- are we already used to the idea -- that terrorism is here to stay, that murderous scum will kill innocents every now and then and this will go on into the indefinite future?

I'm not used to that idea, and I never will be.

But I believe this that I've said before: until we recognize homegrown terror for what it is -- no less than anything from abroad -- and until we stand against every kind of terror, we will never defeat terrorism.

Sadly, I don't think I see that recognition happening, that stand taking shape.

The reaction I fully expect to this post from some -- the usual spluttering outrage that I can even think of calling murders by Indians (e.g. 3000 killed in Delhi, 1984) terrorism, that I can even think of comparing that to what happened on 26/11 -- that reaction is exactly what I mean in the sentence above that begins "Sadly ...".

32 comments:

Chandru K said...

Exactly, why even mention Nov/1984? Unless it is directly connected. This is an ideological attack by Islamic terrorists with the help of Pakistan.

Nakul Shahane said...

You know dsouza, Im a long time lurker on your blog who has never agreed with this viewpoint of yours in all the years youve pushed it, ie that we need to start paying atention to the homegrown violence too. But I think Ive finally starting to see you point. (And that is why I am writing this my first comment here).

If we will not punish the killers who live and prosper among us after their crimes, how can we claim to be fighting terrorism?

Chandru's comments only helped me see this point. he doesnt want any mention of the killings that he has convenient explanations for (they were "provoked"). In this way he is exactly the same as the sick b**stards in the Lashkar who use the same language to justify their murdering.

Chandru K said...

Nakul Shahane, you're missing the point. Absolutely nothing India does, short of handing Kashmir to Pakistan on a platter, at the very least, will suffice to end terrorism against India. The "provocation" is more simple than you think: India being Hindu/non-Moslem, and having the audacity of holding on to a Moslem majority state sticks in the Pakistanis' craw.

Anyway, it's tasteless to raise the subject of Nov/1984, when there is absolutely no connection whatsoever. And here's the crucial point: adequate punishment for those involved in that killing, would not make one whit of difference to Islamic terrorists today, who are striking places like Pune.
As for claiming to fight against terror, then name one country that is genuinely fighting against terror? As I pointed out on another subject in this blog, the US, UK, France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Portugal have all mass murdered innocent civilians under one pretext or another, and nobody was ever punished for it.

Jai_C said...

Adequate and *timely* punishment for perpetrators of 84, 92, 2002 etc. would help in our enemies not being able to get enough traction here to mount these attacks in the first place.

I'm trying to quote D verbatim from memory of some long-ago post:

"I'm pretty sure Pak is gleefully fanning the flames but..."[words to the effect that there are flames to begin with]

thanks,
Jai

Chandru K said...

But that raises a troubling question. Why then do China, North Korea,Saudi Arabia and Myanmar not suffer even a tiny fraction of the terrorism India does? It can't be because they are very loving, just, free, equal, totally non-repressive, and otherwise lacking in any perfidy by the 'state', and those associated with the state. The troubling answer can only be something politically incorrect. And very few Indians want to touch that.

Nakul Shahane said...

Chandru, Ive been reading your comments here for some months. What they have successfuly showed me is that you are in actuality, like I said before, exact the same as the Lashkar and other terrorist groups. For a long time I tried hard to think there was a difference in your language and attitude and their's. Finally I had to admit it, there is none.

So I shud actually say thank you to you for opening my eye's. and thanks to guys like you we will remain a terrorism target. I dont want to say any more because I dont know how to remain polite about this.

Chandru K said...

Nakul, at least extend me the courtesy of waiting before I actually kill someone, before labeling me equal to the Lashkar-E-Toiba. And what does 'attitude' of people like me, have to do with India suffering from terrorism? Oh, here's a little update: India lost 14 jawans in West Bengal today. And these attacks will continue until India punishes the perpetrators of Nov/1984? Get out of here.

Nakul Shahane said...

"Get out of here"? Why shud I?

I will only repeate: I tried hard to think there was a difference in your language and attitude and Lashkar's. Finally I had to admit it, there is none.

Chandru K said...

Nakul, come out of your little Punjabi village and see India, the region and the world more holistically. The Lashkar are essentially Punjabi Mohammedans, so you would feel a closer kinship to them than I ever would. If you must compare me with some group, compare me with the Tamil separatists in Sri Lanka. For the record, I don't support their separatism, or any separatism unless it is absolutely, positively necessary i.e if an entire people or their language are facing certain extinction.

Anonymous said...

"extend me the courtesy of waiting before I actually kill someone, before labeling me equal to the Lashkar-E-Toiba" (Chandru).

You are right, Chandru K.

Maybe I can therefore remind you that the VHP/BJP/RSS killed many hundred of people in Gujrat. Will you label them the equal of the Lashkar-E-Toiba?

Chandru K said...

No, I won't label them equal to the Lashkar, despite the fact that some of them have committed criminal acts. To equate them to the Lashkar and other Islamic groups, more would have to happen, including massive transnational terrorism( i.e hijacking a boat, landing on the shores of a non-Indian city, and massacring 200 people based on an injustice done to Hindus in that country), relentless violence, espousal of a theocratic dictatorship replete with ancient laws, outlawing of all other religions from the outset, a ban on arts and entertainment, huge restrictions on the freedom of women, a loathing for democracy and elections, and a belief that history starts at a certain date such as 1800 BCE, and everything before that is non-existent or irrelevant.

Surya said...

ANonymous - Seems to get news from IBN and NDTV to label BJP/RSS as murderers Or maybe Dawn

Anonymous said...

Surya, you are slyly left out "VHP". So they are the murderers? This is case of "we claim you as parivar when convenient, we diswon you when not"?

I was thinking of one Babulal Bajrangi when I Wrote that comment. Something about him and his "work" in Gujarat, you can find here. It is not NDTV, IBN, Dawn.

Chandru, so after killing almost to one thousand poeple, acc to you "more has to happen" to equate it to killing of two hunderd people. I will then only echo Shahane's sentence, "thank u for opening my eyes".

Nakul Shahane said...

"Come out of your little Punjabi village and see India, the region and the world more holistically. The Lashkar are essentially Punjabi Mohammedans, so you would feel a closer kinship to them than I ever would."

Chandru, I dont know what you are trying to imply by this. I live in Pune. I have visited German Bakry. This is also why I have commented.

Nakul Shahane said...

Anonymous's his above comment reminded me of one more reason Chandru is no different from sympathizers of Lashkar - both have queasy moral standards. He wants us to think that You can kill a 1000 innocent people and it is a lesser crime than somebody different who killed 200.

Both kinds of terrorists are a menace to society.

Chandru K said...

Yes, but what is the connection between getting justice for the rioters of 1984, and terrorist attacks against India in Mumbai and Pune in 2008 and 2010? None! No connection, no relationship, linear or otherwise. A wishy-washy theory of disgruntled Moslems in India providing support to mischief makers from Pakistan isn't good enough. Really, it is a counsel of perfection. India with 1.1 billion is going to have tensions that sometimes lead to violence, over religion, language, caste, class and region(i.e the recent Telangana spat). That doesn't automatically result in terrorism from outside, let alone justify it in any way.

Chandru K said...

"He wants us to think that You can kill a 1000 innocent people and it is a lesser crime than somebody different who killed 200."

But what if one group killed after a massive provocation such as the murder of a democratically elected prime minister by her own body guards, people who are not supposed to think about political controversies or sectarian conflicts?
And the other group killed because they wanted to slaughter as many non-believers as possible, while simultaneously damaging India economically? And what if the long term goal of this second group is to set up a theocratic state run on Islamic laws, and outlaw the expression of all other religions, enforce one language, and teach that history begins in the 7th century. So it's not just the killing, bad as that is. It's everything else associated with the people doing the killing. But to grasp that, you have to think beyond your nose. And not just mindlessly indulge in 'equal-equal' idiocy.

Nakul Shahane said...

"what is the connection between getting justice for the rioters of 1984, and terrorist attacks against India"

Odd question, indeed! 3000+ were killed by terorrism in 1984 - Should their families get justice, whether there is connection to any other terrorism attack or not?

Why would you be wanting justice for Mumbai 2008 and Pune 2010 but not for Delhi 1984? Why not for all three massacres, even if no connection between them?

This is your doutbful sense of morality.

"what if one group killed after a massive provocation"

This is the language that is no different, but in fact exactly same, from Lashkar etc.

Chandru K said...

"Why would you be wanting justice for Mumbai 2008 and Pune 2010 but not for Delhi 1984?"

Whether the victims of 1984 should get justice or not, has absolutely no bearing on the reality of Islamic terrorism in February 2010. Start another topic/blog about "those dark days in November 1984". And another one about "those dark days in the Belgian Congo in the early 20th century"

Anonymous said...

Chandru, But of course you didnt answer the questions from Nakul Shahani: "Why would you be wanting justice for Mumbai 2008 and Pune 2010 but not for Delhi 1984? Why not for all three massacres, even if no connection between them?"

Do you think the killing of Sikhs in 1984 was not a "reality" for their families? Is it a different reality from your "reality of Islamic terrorism in February 2010"? How so?

Nakul Shahane said...

Today's news - Delhi court issues warrant for Sajjan Kumar in the 1984 Delhi massacre.

Chandru, why this is happening when you said it has "no connection" to Mumbai and Pune attacks in 2008 and 2010? Why they are not letting Sajjan Kumar remain unpunished?

Chandru K said...

has "no connection" to Mumbai and Pune attacks in 2008 and 2010?

It has no connection whatsoever. Nor will the warrant or his possible conviction make one iota of difference to Islamic terrorists, who will try to attack India again and again( and again and again and again).

Nakul Shahane said...

Chandru, you did not answer the question.

Why the NBW for Sajjan Kumar in the 1984 massacre case is issued at all? When your whole logic train is to show that we should ignore that massarce completely, and anyway it was a response to a "massive provocation"? (your quote)

Chandru K said...

Here's putting a human face to the Pune blast. My goodness, a Hindu sounding name evoking sympathy.

Pune/Lucknow: Abhishek Saxenas widowed mother had all her hopes pinned on him. But all came to a crashing end when the 23-year-old third-year BTech (mechanical) student of D Y Patil Engineering College in Pune died at Inlaks and Budhrani hospital on Tuesday, taking the German Bakery blast toll to 10.
Hailing from Lucknow, Abhishek was an only child. For his mother Nidhi, it was the cruelest blow: her husband, S C Saxena, a bank manager, died in 1994 when Abhishek was barely eight.

Gurpreet said...

> putting a human face to the Pune blast. ... a Hindu sounding name evoking sympathy.

cud there be a more crass comment than this, a greater insult to the 11 (so far) people who have died in Pune?

u needed a particular name to "put a human face" to the killing, Chandru? before that u could not think of these horrendous deaths as humans?

doesnt surprise me that u r so dismissive of 1984 and 2002, etc.

but u know what? im too young to remember 1984, but i have frendz whose relatives were killed. they have human faces too. both the frendz and their relatives.

Chandru K said...

"could there be a more crass comment than this, a greater insult to the 11 (so far) people who have died in Pune?"

Not true at all. When the victim in question is a Moslem or Christian( or Sikh in the case of 1984) all kinds of sympathy and crocodile tears are shed by the non-Indian media, and by the Indian media as well. A Hindu victim of terror doesn't evoke the same sentiment.
A lot of people in Punjab who lived through the violent Khalistan insurgency between 1984-1992, also lost relatives and friends. You are not more important than them. And the number was much higher than 3,000.

Chandru K said...

I picked this up from another forum. It's a list of excuses for Indian inaction, political or economic, in the wake of the Pune bomb blast.

* Pakistanis are our long lost brothers
* India must not react or the US's plans will be upset
* A big brother must always be willing to make sacrifices
* Such things will happen no?
* Have you looked at the role of Bajrang Dal and RSS in Gujrat
* Col Purohit could be responsible
* We must talk to Pakistan
* Fasten you seatbelts folks - more is coming
* War is bad for the economy
* What will we get from hitting a few tents?
* Do you know how many brides were burned in India yesterday?
* India's mature role is much appreciated in the west

Anonymous said...

Chandru on the Outlook site you post the idential comment to above but call yourself Varun Shekhar. Why? (http://www.outlookindia.com/letters.aspx?0-1-Web)

Apart from that I goota say I love your remark to Gurpreet.

For one thing it shows your illogic. Elsewhere you make pains to show that the 200 deaths of 26/11 (say) are far more horrible than the 3000 of 1984. Here you adminish Gurpreet saying Khalistan deaths were more than 3000.

For second thing, "you are not more important than them". Attaboy! That's the way to put him in his place! The only one who is allowed to feel the "human" side of terrorism is you, even if belatedly as you show.

dcubed, the best thing about your comment section is the way Chandru/Varun manages to show us his real self. What a guy.

Dilip D'Souza said...

Thank you Nakul S for the link to the Sajjan Kumar news. I hope the police have the will to arrest the guy this time. I hope he faces a measure of law and justice, unlike his colleague Bhagat who died in '05.

Chandru K said...

"Elsewhere you make pains to show that the 200 deaths of 26/11 (say) are far more horrible than the 3000 of 1984."

I didn't say that at all. I just said that the deaths of those 3000 took place 25 years ago, have no relation whatsoever to the recent Islamic attacks, and whose resolution will not affect future Islamic attacks similar to Pune and Mumbai. But if you're constantly going to bring up the 3000 deaths in Nov/1984, at least have the courtesy to mention the 5-10 times that number of Khalistani murders in the period 1984-1992. Notice how I did not mention the insurgency killings before the "3000 dead in 1984" was referred to.

Yam said...

''relentless violence, espousal of a theocratic dictatorship replete with ancient laws, outlawing of all other religions from the outset, a ban on arts and entertainment, huge restrictions on the freedom of women, a loathing for democracy and elections, and a belief that history starts at a certain date such as 1800 BCE, and everything before that is non-existent or irrelevant.''

Chandru you seem to suggest with these two comments that a solution to tackle terrorism is a politically incorrect one - autocratic governance like those in the countries mentioned below.

''Why then do China, North Korea,Saudi Arabia and Myanmar not suffer even a tiny fraction of the terrorism India does?''

Modern day Hindu fundamentalism is just a teenage version of muslim fundamentalism. they might not yet have gone to another country to hijack a boat. But they champion hatred against muslims (meet modi), ban arts and entertainment - ( meet moral and cultural policing against valentine's day , killing of couples who want to enter inter religious marriages ) , rewriting history books and creating their own wishful versions of History). WE have other glorious additives like caste to kill for..so we are just a mirror image of the muslims.. and I am unfortunately born a Hindu..

Chandru K said...

The Taliban and other Islamic fundamentalists' ban on arts, entertainment and religious freedom, is comprehensive. It cannot be compared to isolated instances of such behaviour from the Hindu groups. The idea of mentioning China, North Korea etc, is to discredit the obviously wrong theory that repression or violence by the state, causes terrorism by disaffected groups or individuals. China, North Korea and Myanmar are barely suffering at all. India is suffering a lot.